I'm not sure I love my Stage...

[JonFo]

Many reasons for a center channel. Primarily they 'anchor' the soundstage or Dialogue for the listeners in the room. Anyone who is slightly offset from the pure middle of 2 speakers will start getting very skewed sound cues that would not work well in movies.

I actually use multichannel up conversions, like TriField even for 2ch sources, as they are much more pleasing (in a well setup system).

Read more here: http://stereophile.com/reference/407upward/

 

[macallan]

Would the Fresco i be a good alternative? Since the stage is a mix of cone and stat would the ATF driver of the Fresco i work better as a center? I think it looks much better.

 

[FISH_MAN]

I think if it where my system I would mount the tv flat to those squares somehow on the back wall and relocate the stuff that's directly on top of your entertainment center elsewhere then I would place the stage there.at a second look your system looks a little cluttered the way you have it I think that's a big reason why you do not like your stage.replacing it with a fresco in the same spot it is now will not look much better.just my 2 cents I hope it helps

 

[Feltran]

I think if it where my system I would mount the tv flat to those squares somehow on the back wall and relocate the stuff that's directly on top of your entertainment center elsewhere then I would place the stage there.at a second look your system looks a little cluttered the way you have it I think that's a big reason why you do not like your stage.

I've thought about doing that, but there are a couple of setbacks. One is that space is pretty limited, and the only other spot I could possibly put components is if I were to hang shelves on the wall directly above the subwoofer - but that would also be behind one of the Spires and I think would at best look off balance, and at worst could further compromise acoustics. Also, since the Spires are 26'' from the wall, mounting the TV to the wall means the spires would be about 22'' closer than the TV, which I think would make it look like they were sort of floating in the middle of the room.

I would love to have a larger TV, and if I did I would mount it to the wall to make it look more proportionate to everything else, but the TV is already 52'', and high quality flat panels more than just a few inches larger than that cost a fortune.

 

[FISH_MAN]

I think with some more work you can hammer out the details. my screen is flat on the wall and my spire panels are about 36" from the back wall and it looks fine I know mine is in its own room but I think you will be OK.

 

[JMAUSGP]

So did you determine if the Stage was working properly?

 

[Feltran]

So did you determine if the Stage was working properly?

I'm pretty sure the speaker is working properly, yes. I also feel like I have either adapted to the sound better or that it has broken in over time. However, I'm still not convinced that it pairs very well with the Spires.

 

[FISH_MAN]

you know feltran if you are not sure about it I would give it until fall and then if you still do not like it I would sell it and not use any center. do not try to sell it now as you will not get a fair price. as for the fresco that is really not a very valid solution for the spires in my opinion I own 2 of them in my living room and do not thing they would be to good with my spires anyway I am just trying to save you any more headaches.keep us informed

 

[Feltran]

As I indicated in my first post, I still like the more dynamic sound that comes from a 3.1 system as opposed to a 2.1 system for HT. I'm a little disappointed with the Stage as a speaker, but I intend to keep it until I stumble across something else (or until ML makes a new high end center channel speaker).

I'm not surprised that I don't think the Stage is as good as the Spires. The Spire has newer technology and costs more. However, as ML's product line gets more and more expensive (Summit X and CLX) I hope that they feel it is important to keep their HT customers as satisfied as their 2 channel customers.

 

[FISH_MAN]

I could be way off base here but it seams to me the the 2 channel guys are going to still be spending the big bucks but because of the economy the HT guys are going to be looking for better deals and cheaper ways to get things done.I love HT but I think that the majority of these expensive builds are done to impress people friends and nothing more.as people who buy 2 speakers for music buy only to impress themselves and for personal enjoyment they will still find a way to get the next best thing.I find it doubtful that Logan will introduce a much better center possibly one that has the same crossover as the CLX or spires but it will probably not be much different than the stage.

I personally am very impressed with this speaker when I first bought it I could not beleive it cost what it did but all was at ease after I turned it on :music:
its to bad you are not feeling the same enjoyment perhaps their is still some strange unidentified anomaly at work here ?

 

[Feltran]

The Stage has different cables (both interconnect and speaker cable) than the Spires. The speaker cable might be a little difficult to check on, but when I upgrade my interconnects I'll be getting the same ones for the Stage and Spires. I'm curious to see if I'll notice a difference when I do that.

 

[JMAUSGP]

Rumor has it that ML is working on a mini horizontal CLX for the center channel. Stay tuned, I know I am game when it happens and hopefully it is under 6K.

 

[JonFo]

Feltran, I’d not bother with cables, they can’t possibly fix the challenges you describe.

The basic problem with using a small, horizontally arrayed center with large vertical line sources is that a combination of factors is working against the horizontal layout center.

The way a line-source speaker couples to room is a big plus (in many ways) and is why people rarely say a flat, smaller speaker ‘sounds the same’. It can’t, just due to how it will interact with the room.
Plus, centers are generally placed way, way to low relative to the L/R speakers to ever sound right.

IMHO, the only way to get a satisfactory blend is to bite the bullet and use a vertical line source center. This means that if you want video, front projection onto an acoustically transparent screen is the only way to do this right.

I obviously feel strongly enough about this that I took matters into my own hands for my system, but a Spire owner could have an excellent multichannel experience with another Spire for a center.

Granted, I don’t expect to see anyone do this anytime soon.

The rumor of new center using DualForce bass panels would very cool indeed. Can’t wait to see what they do there.

 

[FISH_MAN]

Feltran, I’d not bother with cables, they can’t possibly fix the challenges you describe.

The basic problem with using a small, horizontally arrayed center with large vertical line sources is that a combination of factors is working against the horizontal layout center.

The way a line-source speaker couples to room is a big plus (in many ways) and is why people rarely say a flat, smaller speaker ‘sounds the same’. It can’t, just due to how it will interact with the room.
Plus, centers are generally placed way, way to low relative to the L/R speakers to ever sound right.

IMHO, the only way to get a satisfactory blend is to bite the bullet and use a vertical line source center. This means that if you want video, front projection onto an acoustically transparent screen is the only way to do this right.

I obviously feel strongly enough about this that I took matters into my own hands for my system, but a Spire owner could have an excellent multichannel experience with another Spire for a center.

Granted, I don’t expect to see anyone do this anytime soon.

The rumor of new center using DualForce bass panels would very cool indeed. Can’t wait to see what they do there.

have you looked at his setup?lol you cannot implement any of those ideas in that room.come on this guy has a 3K center channel he is about to pitch if we cannot find a solution for him

BTW although JonFo seems to like his transparent screen and his really cool center channel there are many myself included that feel those screens mask some of the sound.I even believe I read an article where Gayle Sanders was setting up a stage with a pair of statement e2's and removed the speaker from behind the transparent screen to just below it because he did not like the effects. it is essentially like having the speaker covered with grill cloth that's one of the reasons these speakers sound so good is that there is nothing between the listener and the diaphragm to disrupt the sound waves.I was going to buy a third spire for the center channel and implement the transparent screen but after much investigation and listening I did not want to give up the detail.keep trying to find a way to work it in

 

[Rich]

have you looked at his setup?lol you cannot implement any of those ideas in that room.

Why not? He could easily buy another Spire and place it in the center and then mount his T.V. screen higher. And that would solve the audio issue, but then he might have a sore neck from watching the video.

But, taking your advice and looking at his setup, the problem with Feltran's sound becomes pretty obvious. If he still has the same setup, it appears from his system picture that he has the Spires set up with the panels raked slightly backward (rather than vertical) and then he has the Stage mounted above (or very close to it) the top of the Spires and angled sharply downward! Think about it for a minute. Your main speakers are at ear level and angled slightly upward, and your center is well above them and angled sharply downward. Is it any surprise the center doesn't sound right?

Add to that the fact that the center is right against the back wall and the TV below it, creating all kinds of reflection issues. Also, the fact that he has some sort of panels (absorptive?) behind the center but not behind the other speakers adds to the mismatch in sound.

I am honestly taken aback sometimes by the efforts people will go to in order to get their main speakers set up properly, but then they just stick a center channel wherever and however works easiest without regard to how it might sound, and then wonder why it doesn't sound as good as their main speakers. I don't mean this as a put-down to you, Seth. It is just a trend I have noticed with many home theater setups. I honestly think you will get much better sound from your Stage if you re-think your setup with an emphasis on setting your speakers up so their sound radiation patterns are more similar.

My Summits have a vertical rake, as does my Stage, which is mounted at ear height. All three have exactly the same absorptive panels behind them. The sound is amazingly seamless.

 

[JMAUSGP]

Whoa, I looked at the system as described by Rich and he is right on. There is no way that this system is even close to optomized.

As they say in the hood, there is gonna havta be some big time placement changes for this to ever work.....or something along those lines.

My guess would be that sound would be outstanding if Feltran could only get the palcement a little closer to the called for specs.

 

[Feltran]

Martin Logan doesn't say not to place the Stage on a wall, and all it says is to tilt it directly towards the listener's ears. That's exactly what I did.

The Spire doesn't have adjustable spikes, though I could probably adjust them to make them more vertical... Simply changing the angle of the Stage might help, I don't know, but it would be going against what the Stage manual says to do.

 

[FISH_MAN]

Martin Logan doesn't say not to place the Stage on a wall, and all it says is to tilt it directly towards the listener's ears. That's exactly what I did.

The Spire doesn't have adjustable spikes, though I could probably adjust them to make them more vertical... Simply changing the angle of the Stage might help, I don't know, but it would be going against what the Stage manual says to do.

You did what you are supposed to to they even recommend screwing it to the wall. I think for some reason it will sound better under your TV than above it I have never liked center channels mounted about the TV.

 

[Feltran]

Samsung makes a 65'' plasma TV, I'm considering upgrading to that and hanging it on the wall, which would give me room to put the Stage beneath it. I just need to convince myself that it's not unreasonable to get rid of a high quality 1080p TV I already have to get a bigger one.

 

[JMAUSGP]

Martin Logan doesn't say not to place the Stage on a wall, and all it says is to tilt it directly towards the listener's ears. That's exactly what I did.

The Spire doesn't have adjustable spikes, though I could probably adjust them to make them more vertical... Simply changing the angle of the Stage might help, I don't know, but it would be going against what the Stage manual says to do.

Sorry I was not talking about just the angle of the Stage. All your speakers look a bit too packed in. I would guess they could use a little breathing room. And then the angle of the Stage and the Spires are a bit criscrossed.

If you are really interested, you can do some searching of the MLOC forum and I am pretty sure you can find a number of discussions about speaker placement.

I know it will make it much easier if you have a level laser so that you can get the rake properly setup in relation to the listening postion.

As for the Spires rake, sometimes you can take the front spikes off and leave the back spikes on, at least that will make it easier to get the rake 90 degrees or vertical.

Anyway, there is a lot of work you can do on placement before you can really know what is what with your MLs.