No arguement from me Steve, I'm basically in agreement with you ! One does not need to re-mortgage the house for good quality cables.
How important is wire/interconnects?
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kwr
Well-known member
Sigh...
I really try to avoid this topic when it comes up, but...
Quality interconnects should make a difference.......
Speaker cable - above a given gauge, and using stranded wire, I don't buy it..............
Power cables: I call bull on this.........
Everyone has opinions - those are mine. Feel free to argue.
I am not going to argue with you Steve particularly as for the majority of what you say I agree with .... however ...
I have become a recent powercord convert. It offends me that it works as my limited electrical know how screams ********. Our system runs a lot of the time as it is literally in the middle of the kitchen/dining/lounge area and we are very familiar with the sound. Changing power cords has the effect of making the Plinius system sound as though it is running in Class A when it is in A/B. Sorry I am not sufficiently anal to figure out what proportion of the change in quality is due to each component getting the bigger than stock power cord.
If it is any consolation Steve I have in the past changed out Analysis Plus Silver Oval interconnect for a local (Osborn) silver interconnect that is 20% the price. The concept of hollow cable is very appealing but in the listening stakes didn't cut it. Speaker wire is multistrand, shielded, high bandwidth, no name stuff developed for lab measurement again from Osborn. Analysis Plus speaker cable which I had not purchased this time not in the ballpark.
I have no sensible notion of why the power cords work. You are perfectly entiteled to call placebo, brain burn in etc. However I do have the ability to flick between Class AB/A bias and the power cords have a similar effect.
Kevin
Joey_V
Well-known member
Guys,
Know that I do not want a debate... and I know that we are all very civilized in this forum and this thread shows that completely. I'm very impressed....
Just wanted to point that out....
And as always, thanks for helping me out.
Joey
Know that I do not want a debate... and I know that we are all very civilized in this forum and this thread shows that completely. I'm very impressed....
Just wanted to point that out....
And as always, thanks for helping me out.
Joey
Audiophiliac
Well-known member
If you are going to have a 5-figure+ speaker system and 5-figure+ electronics, dont use trailer park wire....it just doesn't look right.
kwr
Well-known member
That is very funny ! Well put ..........If you are going to have a 5-figure+ speaker system and 5-figure+ electronics, dont use trailer park wire....it just doesn't look right.
Joey_V
Well-known member
That is very funny ! Well put ..........
Love it....
Sometimes I want to get them expensive wires because of the "bling factor"...
Joey :haha1:
fubar1764
Active member
Hey, the cost of spiffiness! My brother drives an E55 and pays more for maintenance than I do on my Lotus! So naturally, I have to chide him, "You pay for spiffiness, and all you get is a Merc!"
Ok, back to wires. I fall into the wires make a difference up to a point (how's THAT for straddling the fence?!). Really, that means I fall into the camp of cables don't matter.
That said, let me relate a very recent experience where it mattered a ton!
We recently replaced our Denon DRA-325R (yes, it's that old!) with an Adcom 545II amp and Linn Wakonda preamp. One of the things I expected in the change was for the disappearance of a hum at higher volumes. Oops. It didn't. Ok. So then I went to my local audio parts store and got generic (really generic as in they're not in plastic packaging) double shielded OFC gold-plate tipped ICs at 1.5ft. I switched out between the source CD jukebox to the preamp and from the preamp to the amp. World of difference. The hum disappeared beneath a certain level and was greatly diminished at the higher volumes.
Sidebar: I tested it by having the source turned on but without anything playing, then jacked up the volume.
My conclusion was that the cheapie interconnect I was using was not EM shielded. Picking up the $2.95 shielded interconnect made a day/night difference.
Sidebar on cables. Bell Labs, IMO, did all the research that could be done on cables. They had to run gazillion miles of phone wires and still maintain some semblence of the original signal. Everything that can or should be done to cables has already been done and incorporated into standards for the telephone industry. With that said, I just don't buy it when Transparent Audio wants to convince me that a pair of speaker cables is worth $40k. Unless it's a 0ga that comes in 2 ton spools, I ain't buyin'!
IC cables that are shielded shouldn't cross talk over the low voltages they run. Like Steve said, speaker cables shouldn't register much interference that might be around (but even if it might, fairly inexpensive shielded ones aren't expensive). When one purchases cables and it sounds different, then the manufacturer probably has done something to the cable to blend in characteristics people might like. To me, I think that's great, but not worth the time, energy, and expense to swap. I guess I'm more a listener than a hobbyist. LOL!
One final thought on line conditioners (tangentially related, don't ya'll think?). Again, I agree with Steve. Unless you have a dedicated panel that goes directly into the power grid, all the power is going to be "bad." Most manufacturers of quality equipment will have compensated for this in their power supplies. Bryston says something like this in their older owners manuals, "You don't need a line conditioner, this unit will work just fine without one." And they have 20 year guarantees!
I'm using a UPS because of its surge protection qualities. Then I run into Bill Cushman (Widescreen Review) yesterday. He gives me a convincing explanation as to why if there's a close lightening strike, a surge protecter will be protected, but my equipment will probably fry anyways. Very disappointing. And he's probably right.
Oh, I have transparent MusicWave speaker cables. They look COOL! Paid nothing for them, and they're the best cables I could possibly imagine!!! :haha1:
So naturally, I have to chide him, "You pay for spiffiness, and all you get is a Merc!"Ok, back to wires. I fall into the wires make a difference up to a point (how's THAT for straddling the fence?!). Really, that means I fall into the camp of cables don't matter.
That said, let me relate a very recent experience where it mattered a ton!
We recently replaced our Denon DRA-325R (yes, it's that old!) with an Adcom 545II amp and Linn Wakonda preamp. One of the things I expected in the change was for the disappearance of a hum at higher volumes. Oops. It didn't. Ok. So then I went to my local audio parts store and got generic (really generic as in they're not in plastic packaging) double shielded OFC gold-plate tipped ICs at 1.5ft. I switched out between the source CD jukebox to the preamp and from the preamp to the amp. World of difference. The hum disappeared beneath a certain level and was greatly diminished at the higher volumes.
Sidebar: I tested it by having the source turned on but without anything playing, then jacked up the volume.
My conclusion was that the cheapie interconnect I was using was not EM shielded. Picking up the $2.95 shielded interconnect made a day/night difference.
Sidebar on cables. Bell Labs, IMO, did all the research that could be done on cables. They had to run gazillion miles of phone wires and still maintain some semblence of the original signal. Everything that can or should be done to cables has already been done and incorporated into standards for the telephone industry. With that said, I just don't buy it when Transparent Audio wants to convince me that a pair of speaker cables is worth $40k. Unless it's a 0ga that comes in 2 ton spools, I ain't buyin'!
IC cables that are shielded shouldn't cross talk over the low voltages they run. Like Steve said, speaker cables shouldn't register much interference that might be around (but even if it might, fairly inexpensive shielded ones aren't expensive). When one purchases cables and it sounds different, then the manufacturer probably has done something to the cable to blend in characteristics people might like. To me, I think that's great, but not worth the time, energy, and expense to swap. I guess I'm more a listener than a hobbyist. LOL!
One final thought on line conditioners (tangentially related, don't ya'll think?). Again, I agree with Steve. Unless you have a dedicated panel that goes directly into the power grid, all the power is going to be "bad." Most manufacturers of quality equipment will have compensated for this in their power supplies. Bryston says something like this in their older owners manuals, "You don't need a line conditioner, this unit will work just fine without one." And they have 20 year guarantees!
I'm using a UPS because of its surge protection qualities. Then I run into Bill Cushman (Widescreen Review) yesterday. He gives me a convincing explanation as to why if there's a close lightening strike, a surge protecter will be protected, but my equipment will probably fry anyways.
Very disappointing. And he's probably right. Oh, I have transparent MusicWave speaker cables. They look COOL! Paid nothing for them, and they're the best cables I could possibly imagine!!! :haha1:
Last edited:
David Matz
Well-known member
It's your last frontier
I also belong to the camp that cables make a huge difference for most of us who have pretty solid equipment.
I recently tried a $1,000 Transparent Ultra audio interconnect between the source and the preamp vs the $200 Transparent interconnect in my system. All I can say is that the difference was as huge as getting a new preamp - I was completely blown away! The difference was also siginificant with a $700 Transparent, but not as huge as the $1,000 interconnect.
Audition for yourself, of course, but if you get something expensive, you will not be disappointed.
Joey, I regret telling you this, because I have a feeling you will be slurping more Ramen once you hear the difference.
I also belong to the camp that cables make a huge difference for most of us who have pretty solid equipment.
I recently tried a $1,000 Transparent Ultra audio interconnect between the source and the preamp vs the $200 Transparent interconnect in my system. All I can say is that the difference was as huge as getting a new preamp - I was completely blown away! The difference was also siginificant with a $700 Transparent, but not as huge as the $1,000 interconnect.
Audition for yourself, of course, but if you get something expensive, you will not be disappointed.
Joey, I regret telling you this, because I have a feeling you will be slurping more Ramen once you hear the difference.
Does cabling have a life expectancy? I was putting new ends on a set of Straight Wire speaker cables last weekend and when I stripped the wire after cutting the old end off a kind of fine dust/powder came off in a little cloud. My immediate thought was the copper is starting to corrode. It makes me wonder if I cut the cable further down will it have the same dust come off. If it is corrosion, I would guess it's because the terminations of the wire are open to the atmosphere even with the heat shrink that most cables have at the end so it would be the logical place for it to start.
Most of my interconnects and speaker cable are Straight Wire I purchased in 1990. I understand wiring exists in quality equipment, in the walls of your house and even the on the poles of the power company for years and some degrading of the wires must occur over time.
If it is a natural corrosion occurring then, would living in Florida with much higher humidity as opposed to say Arizona make wire corrode faster over the years and is it enough to matter?
So, short of cutting all of my cables in half and looking for the magic dust, how much corrosion do you think it would take to affect the sound.
I will try shorting the speaker cables and see if the dust stops. I'll try a couple of new cables if the sound doesn't change than I guess it didn't matter.
Just curious if anyone else has run into this or is it more needless concern from another audio nut?
Most of my interconnects and speaker cable are Straight Wire I purchased in 1990. I understand wiring exists in quality equipment, in the walls of your house and even the on the poles of the power company for years and some degrading of the wires must occur over time.
If it is a natural corrosion occurring then, would living in Florida with much higher humidity as opposed to say Arizona make wire corrode faster over the years and is it enough to matter?
So, short of cutting all of my cables in half and looking for the magic dust, how much corrosion do you think it would take to affect the sound.
I will try shorting the speaker cables and see if the dust stops. I'll try a couple of new cables if the sound doesn't change than I guess it didn't matter.
Just curious if anyone else has run into this or is it more needless concern from another audio nut?
amey01
Well-known member
I think synergy is more important than the actual wire itself. A wire might be fantastic between two components but dreadful between another two components.
SteveInNC
Well-known member
I suspect that the insulator material (plastic?) is the source of your powder. Copper tends to get surface oxidation, the green patina that home designers like in copper trim and statues, but it generally doesn't go below that very thin layer. The same is true of silver and aluminum: the resulting layer of material blocks exposure to air, thus stopping further oxidation and corrosion.
Many plastics tend to outgas their chemical plasticizers over time, making them become brittle. The plasticizer is what makes the plastic flexible.
Thanks Steve,
I shortened the Straight Wire speaker cables between my mono blocks and speakers the powder ended about 6" from each end. No verdigris color on the wire just kind of white powder. I guess I won't worry about them for another 20 years.
I shortened the Straight Wire speaker cables between my mono blocks and speakers the powder ended about 6" from each end. No verdigris color on the wire just kind of white powder. I guess I won't worry about them for another 20 years.
Great thread and loaded with civility on a very heated topic. It has been my experience that higher end pre-amps do not have 'treble' and 'bass' control knobs, so just how do you 'tweak' the sound of your system? Besides room acoustic conditioning, you can do it with wires. ICs, Speaker and Power cables will provide you with the capability of changing the overall sound character of your system. Need / want a brighter sound? go with a cable that has more silver in it, eg. Siltech. Have an issue with dirty power supplied to the wall outlet? Use a power conditioner and couple if with a highly insulated cable, system sound a bit too bright? Look for a cable that has more copper vs. silver.
Bass sound a bit mushy? get a new power cable for your amp. Sound stage a bit cramped? Try better power cables on your transport and DAC.
And I must agree with the folks who responded: The Cable Company - Audition. www.fatwyre.com
All of my experiences stemmed from my system / component supplier, who was kind enough to give me a 30 day full refund on all cables he suggested for my system, and never once tried to convince me that more $$$ equated to better sound!
It was lightly touched on in a couple of posts, if your system is a low resolution system, putting $1k cables is NOT going to help. But after you acquire a fairly high resolution set of components, and you want to Logans to sing, let them open up with better cables. I've subscribed to the 15% spend on cables vs system cost. Its about the same as the philosophy as 'put your most money into your speakers, that's what you are going to hear. Let common sense drive you, but never, ever discount the impact on the sound of the system with different cables.
Good Luck.
OBTW, I have Purist Audio Designs IC's, Digital and Bi-Wire Speaker cables, with JPS Labs power cords all around. They sound better then the original WireWorld Eclipse and Straight Wire cables I started with, and infinitly superior to the stock power cords all of the components were supplied with. Anyone is welcome to drop by and audition my system. Its not a high end system, but I love it. And that's what its all about.
Joe
Bass sound a bit mushy? get a new power cable for your amp. Sound stage a bit cramped? Try better power cables on your transport and DAC.
And I must agree with the folks who responded: The Cable Company - Audition. www.fatwyre.com
All of my experiences stemmed from my system / component supplier, who was kind enough to give me a 30 day full refund on all cables he suggested for my system, and never once tried to convince me that more $$$ equated to better sound!
It was lightly touched on in a couple of posts, if your system is a low resolution system, putting $1k cables is NOT going to help. But after you acquire a fairly high resolution set of components, and you want to Logans to sing, let them open up with better cables. I've subscribed to the 15% spend on cables vs system cost. Its about the same as the philosophy as 'put your most money into your speakers, that's what you are going to hear. Let common sense drive you, but never, ever discount the impact on the sound of the system with different cables.
Good Luck.
OBTW, I have Purist Audio Designs IC's, Digital and Bi-Wire Speaker cables, with JPS Labs power cords all around. They sound better then the original WireWorld Eclipse and Straight Wire cables I started with, and infinitly superior to the stock power cords all of the components were supplied with. Anyone is welcome to drop by and audition my system. Its not a high end system, but I love it. And that's what its all about.
Joe
MickeyVee
Well-known member
Well, I was in the doubtful camp until the weekend. My cat, trinity, loves chewing on cables (only the soft plastic ones) and I figure she has cost me well over $500. So, slowly, I have upgraded my cabling over the years.
Well, I got the Sunfire Super Jr subwoofer a few weeks ago and had a Monster power cable sitting around so I used it instead of the stock cable. Good soft outer shell so chew, chew... darn, replace. OK, I spent a fortune in the last few months so I took the Audioquest NRG-2 off the DVD player and used it for the subwoofer.. took the stock power cable and put it on the DVD player.
I've been trying to get the subwoofer optimally placed and tuned over the past few weeks and haven't really been happy.. until now.. WOW! it really started to kick and integrate well.. a little further tuning with the phase and I think I finally got it. Watched a few movies and am now quite pleased. My little condo rocks!
Now on to 2 channel CD listening.. uh, oh, what happened? definitely lost depth and dynamics.. OK, must be the power cable.
So, the moral of the story is that this weekend, I'll be going out to get a replacement Audioquest NRG-2 for the Marantz universal player.
So, sold on good quality base cables.
Well, I got the Sunfire Super Jr subwoofer a few weeks ago and had a Monster power cable sitting around so I used it instead of the stock cable. Good soft outer shell so chew, chew... darn, replace. OK, I spent a fortune in the last few months so I took the Audioquest NRG-2 off the DVD player and used it for the subwoofer.. took the stock power cable and put it on the DVD player.
I've been trying to get the subwoofer optimally placed and tuned over the past few weeks and haven't really been happy.. until now.. WOW! it really started to kick and integrate well.. a little further tuning with the phase and I think I finally got it. Watched a few movies and am now quite pleased. My little condo rocks!
Now on to 2 channel CD listening.. uh, oh, what happened? definitely lost depth and dynamics.. OK, must be the power cable.
So, the moral of the story is that this weekend, I'll be going out to get a replacement Audioquest NRG-2 for the Marantz universal player.
So, sold on good quality base cables.
Hi MickeyVee,
Try the Velodyne SMS-1 with your sub. It's takes the hassle out of finding a perfect spot for it. I use this digital equaliser with the Descent and I can only say it's magic. Moreover, you can tailor your low end emphasis for different kinds of music - movies, jazz, rock, orchestral, etc - with the half dozen presets available. I knew my HT had a low end problem, but I didn't realise how bad it was until I saw the frequency graph displayed by the unit on the screen.
Ben
MickeyVee
Well-known member
Hi Ben,
Yes, it's on my wish list. Already started my initial investigations and it looks quite cool. For now, I'm satisfied but but do see the SMS-1 in my future.
Thanks,
Mark
