Have we become comfortably numb

[Joey_V]

People in Switzerland can not purchase ammunition, period.
The 2000 militia who are each issued 50 rounds, have those rounds inventoried regularly.
If you want to fire your gun, you have to go to a firing range.

•Nearly every male in Switzerland goes through firearm training at the age of 20.
•Swiss males are allowed to keep their firearms after the end of their military service at age 30. The fully automatic weapons must be converted to semi automatic before they can keep them as civilians.
•Switzerland has universal gun registration on gun ownership.
•Switzerland has universal background checks on all gun purchases.
•Switzerland requires universal reporting of firearm transactions, whether commercial or private transfer of ownership.
•Switzerland's carry laws are highly regulated and very restricted. Other than militia members transporting their firearms on their way to militia training, very few people are allowed to actually carry firearms. And they cannot be loaded.
•Despite the militia requirement in Switzerland, the rate of gun ownership (by percentage) in the United States is much higher than in Switzerland.
•Males between 20 and 30 years of age are required to own firearms in Switzerland because they are the nation's well regulated milita. Switzerland has no standing army. It is their civilian militia (much like the intent of the American 2nd amendment) that defends their nation against foreign aggression.
•The vast majority of militia members are not even allowed to store ammo at home. And for the 2000 or so--that's right only 2000--militia members who do have ammo, it is sealed and inspected regularly.


FYI, here is some proof that gun laws even work in the US.

http://www.nationaljournal.com/s/53345/states-with-most-gun-laws-see-fewest-gun-related-deaths

View attachment 18217

Easy to dispute.

Hawaii for instance.

State Population (2007) Gun Ownership (%) (2007) Murder & Negligent Manslaughter (2007) Violent Crime Rate (per 100,000 people) (2007)
1,283,388 6.7% 22 272.79
Population (2013) Gun Ownership (%) (2013) Murder & Negligent Manslaughter (2013) Violent Crime Rate (per 100,000 people) (2013)
1,404,054 45.1% 21 251.63

You quote HI as a state where gun control is present.... look at the number of guns owned and the crime rate. Note a crime rate drop since the gun owned have increased 8 fold.

Same can be done for many other states.

Gun control has nothing to do with controlling crime. The fact is that there is something else that needs to be done rather than just saying "Let's control guns and crime will drop."

The answer?

Our entire society is to blame. Not just the access to guns.

 

[RCHeliGuy]

Easy to dispute.

And that is the whole problem.

Even when the overwhelming evidence points to a correlation between guns and gun deaths, as long as a few data points can be disputed everything else is thrown in the garbage. The NRA has done it's best to find the absolute best way to candy coat gun ownership and has a powerful well financed group of people doing their best to spin data.

But no matter what is presented, you will just complain that I'm picking biased information and nothing changes.

Unfortunately there are people who will manipulate numbers for both points of view.

The US is DROWNING in misinformation cleverly packaged to manipulate people, and unfortunately since fact checking is extremely rare people give up and just choose to believe whatever they read or hear that reinforces what they already believe.

This is why we have such a divided nation. The news is broadcast pre-biased for a specific market that just laps up everything they say. Ever since News became profit centers and about ratings, the only thing that matters is sensationalizing polarizing topics and enraging people. So now we have people unwilling to compromise on anything who believe that they are completely right about everything and the other half of the country is immediately demonized.

We are in a LOSE:LOSE situation and this is just ONE of many topics that many people would literally kill for.

 

[Joey_V]

You couldn't find this?

Also worth noting - this is raw data. The population has been increasing during this time, so a per-capita graph would show an even more marked reduction.

So? Data is easily manipulated.

View attachment 18219

 

[Joey_V]

Again, data is easily manipulated.

 

[Joey_V]

You can show me any data point you want, the fact of the matter is that data by itself is meaningless. There are multiple data points that suggest FOR or AGAINST gun control... for us to keep going around and debating this between developed countries and whether it works or not is a waste of time IMO. We'll just keep going around in circles.

The fact is that there is more to this than simply controlling guns in the United States. There is a difference in our mentality compared to other countries where crime is lower. And it's NOT JUST GUNS.

 

[Joey_V]

Overwhelming evidence? Where is it? All evidence is disputable with data to support YOUR or MY viewpoints.

Again, this is a merry go 'round that will just go nowhere. You don't think this has been discussed in threads and forums before ours?

You can believe what you want, I'll believe mine.

There is no hard proof that MERELY controlling gun ownership reduces crime in general. It's a multifactorial problem.

And that is the whole problem.

Even when the overwhelming evidence points to a correlation between guns and gun deaths, as long as a few data points can be disputed everything else is thrown in the garbage. The NRA has done it's best to find the absolute best way to candy coat gun ownership and has a powerful well financed group of people doing their best to spin data.

But no matter what is presented, you will just complain that I'm picking biased information and nothing changes.

Unfortunately there are people who will manipulate numbers for both points of view.

The US is DROWNING in misinformation cleverly packaged to manipulate people, and unfortunately since fact checking is extremely rare people give up and just choose to believe whatever they read or hear that reinforces what they already believe.

This is why we have such a divided nation. The news is broadcast pre-biased for a specific market that just laps up everything they say. Ever since News became profit centers and about ratings, the only thing that matters is sensationalizing polarizing topics and enraging people. So now we have people unwilling to compromise on anything who believe that they are completely right about everything and the other half of the country is immediately demonized.

We are in a LOSE:LOSE situation and this is just ONE of many topics that many people would literally kill for.

 

[Joey_V]

And here's some pictures Joey if the wards are too busy to read tables:

Note it is not singling out Chicago or any other city. The problem exists in the USA. Why? And how do you propose you fix it?

Again, easy to dispute.

View attachment 18221

Like I said.... it's a merry go 'round.

I'm not arguing anymore... too much time wasted. You guys can go right ahead. I'm going to listen to some music.

 

[repman]

The obvious response my friend. Tubes, watches, and shoes are not designed to kill people.

Gordon , I understand but in my case and I'm sure many others I have over ten different firearms and they have never killed anything but targets and clay birds . I was on the rifle team in high school and on various competitive shooting teams. I have not hunted since I was 16 but do enjoy shooting trap, skeet, targets ( indoor pistol and outdoor rifle)

I also have weapons for home defense purposes that I hope I never have to use but I am grateful that my family and I are all trained to do so if needed. Home invasions have become much more common in the Atlanta area and in the USA.

I am not trying to change any minds here that would be impossible, but I am an advocate for all of the responsible gun owners in this country and our rights under the
constitution.

 

[InterMechanico]

The debate about gun control is healthy, believe it or not. What is not healthy, is that after all the debate in the US, nothing at all has actually been done to correct the problem, ever. There is a clear and identifiable problem (mass shootings, shooting deaths), but everyone is stuck on the rhetoric. Literally, nothing is different than a decade ago. I mean, if gun owners (of which there are many) are really so unwilling to accept that firearms CAN be used to kill people, and are used as such very regularly in the US (and Somalia), then all is lost and nothing will ever change. It is so very sad, but it must be true. You know what else is so very sad? Watching news reports over and over about small children being shot to death in their school. Or university students having their lives cut short.

In the US people have a right to own firearms. That is a fact. Just know that the right that firearm proponents defend so vehemently to own firearms and shoot targets or whatever else is the same right that makes it possible for a few others to commit heinous crimes against others. That is also a fact.

P.S. Meet you back here next month, because nothing ever changes.

 

[Gordon Gray]

Thanks guys for providing some very compelling comments. And for keeping things civil.

As others have said, I think our country is in a perpetual downward spiral with no end in sight.

After Sandy Hook, I thought something would happen. In the end, nothing.

Mark's comment about polarization on this and many other issues is really spot on. And that polarization is the seed that creates the anger and frustration which causes the mentally unstable to act in such a violent, senseless manner.

Absent reasonable people coming together and recognizing there is a problem and then coming up with policies that address the issue without alienating either side's strong held beliefs, there is no answer and sadly, no solution.

If anything, I think this mini discussion has again confirmed the dilemma we all face and why these types of tragic incidents will continue to occur in the future.

 

[RCHeliGuy]

And to be fair when I read the following, I was enraged.

"For the 40th time this year, the 141st time since the Sandy Hook massacre, a gunman had opened fire in a school. "

On top of that I immediately heard a number of people say, "Oh no here we go again, they are going to try to blame guns for this".

 

[slowGEEZR]

I want you to show me gun control has decreased gun crime in Australia. Looking through data on the internet suggests otherwise.

Joey, go to snopes.com, they have a good explanation and a lot of other useful info regarding the statistics used by various pro gun sites.

 

[slowGEEZR]

Joey, we all know that statistics are manipulated. I suggest you simply use the raw data and form your own statistics. I have done this myself and the fact that reducing firearms and their availability has had an overwhelming effect on reducing homicides by guns in many countries. This truth is fought by many pro gun websites all over the Internet. Do anti gun websites manipulate statistics? Of course some do, but the raw numbers are out there, so it is not hard to do it yourself.

 

[Gordon Gray]

And to be fair when I read the following, I was enraged.

"For the 40th time this year, the 141st time since the Sandy Hook massacre, a gunman had opened fire in a school. "

On top of that I immediately heard a number of people say, "Oh no here we go again, they are going to try to blame guns for this".

Mark,

That's the black hole we cannot navigate as a country.

We cannot even agree if the "gun" is the cause (problem) or the solution.

Amazing really.

 

[repman]

The debate about gun control is healthy, believe it or not. What is not healthy, is that after all the debate in the US, nothing at all has actually been done to correct the problem, ever. There is a clear and identifiable problem (mass shootings, shooting deaths), but everyone is stuck on the rhetoric. Literally, nothing is different than a decade ago. I mean, if gun owners (of which there are many) are really so unwilling to accept that firearms CAN be used to kill people, and are used as such very regularly in the US (and Somalia), then all is lost and nothing will ever change. It is so very sad, but it must be true. You know what else is so very sad? Watching news reports over and over about small children being shot to death in their school. Or university students having their lives cut short.

In the US people have a right to own firearms. That is a fact. Just know that the right that firearm proponents defend so vehemently to own firearms and shoot targets or whatever else is the same right that makes it possible for a few others to commit heinous crimes against others. That is also a fact.

P.S. Meet you back here next month, because nothing ever changes.

Do you really believe that those who would want to commit heinous crimes against others would be stopped by banning gun ownership or as in Mexico where it is illegal for citizens to own firearms the drug cartels have no problem sourcing guns for the wild west shootouts they have on the streets . The same would be true here as the old saying goes if guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns .

 

[amey01]

You can show me any data point you want, the fact of the matter is that data by itself is meaningless.

If you don't want to look at the evidence, then that's fine.

Joey - there are still people around that manipulate data to show that smoking is healthy!

None are so blind as those who will not see.

140 mass gun-massacres in schools since Sandy Hook.

If you don't want to ban guns, what's your alternative solution then? Or just tell me that you are fine with the continual massacres in your back yard. While I'll be perplexed I won't hold that against you.

 

[twich54]

Gordon , I understand but in my case and I'm sure many others I have over ten different firearms and they have never killed anything but targets and clay birds . I was on the rifle team in high school and on various competitive shooting teams. I have not hunted since I was 16 but do enjoy shooting trap, skeet, targets ( indoor pistol and outdoor rifle)

I also have weapons for home defense purposes that I hope I never have to use but I am grateful that my family and I are all trained to do so if needed. Home invasions have become much more common in the Atlanta area and in the USA.

I am not trying to change any minds here that would be impossible, but I am an advocate for all of the responsible gun owners in this country and our rights under the
constitution.

Well said Larry and like you I have been a responsible gun owner for close to fifty years. I own dozens of guns and shoot them in various competitive venues. I've hunted since I was a kid and look forward to the day when I can do so with my grandchildren.

As I've said before, the NRA frustrates me at times also, but without it I fear we could lose what is so near and dear to so many.

 

[RCHeliGuy]

Do you really believe that those who would want to commit heinous crimes against others would be stopped by banning gun ownership or as in Mexico where it is illegal for citizens to own firearms the drug cartels have no problem sourcing guns for the wild west shootouts they have on the streets . The same would be true here as the old saying goes if guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns .

Of course the laws have no effect there. Mexico is that the government doesn't have the ability to enforce anything. The drug cartels are arguably more powerful in terms of bribes and weapons than the country is.

The US by stark comparison has local police departments with tanks!

 

[amey01]

Again, data is easily manipulated.

View attachment 18220

Sorry, I thought we were talking about mass-scale murder. Not armed robberies where nobody dies.

Yes - crime does exist without guns.

 

[Gordon Gray]

As I've said before, the NRA frustrates me at times also, but without it I fear we could lose what is so near and dear to so many.

Dave,

As you know because I've said this before, I, along with many others, have no issues with people who use guns or anything else for that matter responsibly.

I recognize that banning guns in the USA is unrealistic and other methods must be implemented that balance second amendment rights and public safety.

I do take issue with the NRA's extreme stances and their inability to realistically address and help solve gun related violence.

As you may recall after Sandyhook, Pierre WTF of the NRA said words to the effect of "we need more good guys with guns to stop the bad guys with guns". And they advocate arming teachers amongst other things. Is this really what we've become?

That's so narcissistic and irresponsible and does nothing to reasonably resolve the growing problem of mass killings in public institutions.

Absent a change of culture on their part and NRA members not calling them out when they respond in such a callous, ignorant manner, things are unlikely to change and will likely get worse. They add fuel to the fire and help build the walls that stifle constructive dialogue.

They are clearly part of the problem and not part of the solution. And that is their choice along with folks who support the current policies and positions of the NRA.

Gordon