Hasta la Vista

[SugarMedia]

While I'm 110% with you, Sugar, and you know it, I must confess I'm not into all this eye candy stuff.

Yes, I know you're with me, and I with you. Apple fans til we die :rocker:

If you like minimal, did you know there there are some apps which will take away the shadow on any open window as it sits over the other? In addition, there's another one on version tracker that will allow you to remove all addt'l languages, freeing up some extra space.

For me, I love 3D and hope there will be more things like the new way to view music as a juke box.

 

[Pcar928fan]

Yes, I know you're with me, and I with you. Apple fans til we die :rocker:

Me TOO!!!!

 

[Joey_V]

I have both Apple (iBook) and PC.... both are great in their own right. The thing I like about PC is their hackablity.... say no more. The great thing I like about Mac is the solidity of the OS and sheer cool-geekiness that I get when I pull out the iBook.

Having both is the way to go for me!

 

[jtwrace]

At the end of the day to me, Microsoft is great! It's great to you, me and more people in this world then you can imagine. How you ask? Well, I use a microsoft product everyday with great success and can't imagine doing what I do without a PC. You? They help this economy more then you probably have ever thought about it....Others? Gates Foundation helps more lives in this world then anyone else combined. If you don't like it that's fine. Use Apple, Linux or others. Or you could always sit in your garage and start something else. Kudos to Bill, Melinda and staff at Microsoft.

 

[IWalker]

I, and others, would be more convinced of the merits of the Apple OS if there wasn't so much bellyaching about the non-issue issues that are repeatedly brought up about windows by the rabid mac users. Sure there are issues, as there are with macs. We don't list them out, because frankly, we just don't care to...it's not worth our time to knock other people/companies/systems down. Doesn't do anybody any good.

It's like if some small Division III school decided it wanted to have a football rivalry with Florida. Florida would be like...huh? rivalry? They're not our rival!

Come back when you've got more market share

 

[lugano]

Come back when you've got more market share

Bose has a bigger market share than Martinlogan. The ride is short, I prefer to have it in first class.

 

[SugarMedia]

Come back when you've got more market share

And Ford has more market share than Mercedes. But which is the better car, the better innovator? Come on... you can come up with a better argument than that.

 

[lugano]

We all like hardware on this forum, don't we ?

Guess which one is a mac and which is a pc:

 

[IWalker]

Bose has a bigger market share than Martinlogan. The ride is short, I prefer to have it in first class.

This is a luxury market...marketing, aesthetics, and convenience often matters more than engineering prowess. Computers, last I checked are not a luxury market, so don't follow the same wacky rules (lack thereof?) There's a much more straightforward approach to things like computers.

Your view of computers as a luxury product segment make it obvious where we're disagreeing on this topic.

 

[IWalker]

And Ford has more market share than Mercedes. But which is the better car, the better innovator? Come on... you are come up with a better argument than that.

Ah!!! I believe we've found the disconnect. You want a LUXURY computer!!! I want a cheap and effective computer. As do the majority of users. Thus market share. If mercedes' cost the same as a ford, they'd have more market share.

Given an apples to apples (pun intended) comparision...the market share argument is actually quite valid.

I don't doubt that apples are nice computers...but for most users, the pretty features aren't worth the tradeoffs. I'm glad you're happy with your choice, but there's no reason to berate the rest of us for our choice.

 

[IWalker]

We all like hardware on this forum, don't we ?

Guess which one is a mac and which is a pc:

And guess which one I can fix myself when there are hardware issues?

Also, not all pcs look QUITE that bad on the inside

Again...caring about how it looks on the inside is a sign that you're treating your computer like a piece of high end stereo equipment, not a value productivity tool. That's your perogative, but you're in the minority.

 

[lugano]

I want the LUXURY of a virus-free computing experience. The luxury of owning objects designed with the end user in mind. The luxury of plug and play as opposed to plug and pray. And guess what - it's not a luxury - just take a look at this document: http://www.thesecurityawarenesscompany.com/winnsdownloads/Winns_TCO_WinTel_vs_Mac.xls

 

[IWalker]

I want the LUXURY of a virus-free computing experience. The luxury of owning objects designed with the end user in mind. The luxury of plug and play as opposed to plug and pray. And guess what - it's not a luxury - just take a look at this document: http://www.thesecurityawarenesscompany.com/winnsdownloads/Winns_TCO_WinTel_vs_Mac.xls

Then you have it. And I have it. I just paid a lot less for mine. Knowing how to properly use a PC is worth a lot it seems.

Here's an analogy for you. Would you rather have a table saw that costs much less, allows you to replace just parts that break yourself (and you can choose who to buy those parts from too), or would you rather have one with a finger guard, so if you can't manage to keep your finger away from the sawblade, then it will prevent you from hurting yourself. I for one, make very sure not to get my fingers close to the sawblade, so I would rather have the first. If you need the coddling of the second, that's your choice. Be happy with it! What makes you need to badmouth my choice? Seriously? Just be happy with yours. It's a matter of preference. We have different preferences. Mine is equally as informed as yours, and our result is different.

I did open that spreadsheet (which strangely enough is in .xls format...a Microsoft format) and factored in the time I've spent on my 3 year old machine doing any of the things listed. Office and Windows XP came pre-loaded. Applied 1 service pack, and google toobar, and I've been good to go since. Didn't download/install firefox becuase IE works great for me.

To each their own. I am going to agree to disagree, and won't come back to this thread, because it's accomplishing nothing. Good luck with your mac ownership. As an open minded consumer, when they show me something worth switching over, I'll switch. Till then, Viva La Vista!

 

[Rich]

I want the LUXURY of a virus-free computing experience. The luxury of owning objects designed with the end user in mind. The luxury of plug and play as opposed to plug and pray. [/url]

I have to say, I agree with Lugano and Sugar on this one. After using MS for 20+ years, I have recently become an Apple convert and the difference in the end-user experience is like night and day (at least for me). Now, every time I get on my P.C. to do something, I end up cursing at it -- not so much for the hardware but for Microsoft's horrible software programming. The last thing they seem to care about is the end-user experience. I am working diligently to get everything transferred over so that I never have to use my P.C. again.

As for productivity, I am more than satisfied with my ability to do everything I need to do on the Mac in just as productive a manner, if not more so, as on the P.C. And regarding the car analogy, I don't think it is a "luxury" market vs. standard market. I really think it is about seeking performance, ergonomics and ease of use. I own both a Mercedes performance sports car and a Ford truck, so I am supremely qualified to make this analogy.

It is not just that the Mercedes has nicer leather seats and looks prettier. It bolts from 0-60 in no time flat, corners like it is glued to the road, and makes everything I do in the driver's seat a little more effortless. Although, Apple's hardware is designed "prettier" than most P.C.'s, that's not what it is all about for me. It is all about the software -- what is included, how it works, and how it makes everything I do in the "driver's seat" a little more effortless. In other words, it is all about performance. Just my two cents.

 

[SugarMedia]

Rich, glad to hear you're happy with your switch. You're bang on with the correct interpretation of the Mercedes, Ford comparison.

Moving on... here are 3 stories from Steve jobs if you have 15 mintutes or so.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1R-jKKp3NA&eurl=http://eschenck.typepad.com/

 

[Pcar928fan]

I don't doubt that apples are nice computers...but for most users, the pretty features aren't worth the tradeoffs. I'm glad you're happy with your choice, but there's no reason to berate the rest of us for our choice.

What trade off? I have never felt like I was missing a thing and in fact am not missing a thing. In fact my computer (all my macs) are MUCH easier to deal w/ than my POS Windoze based Dell that the company provides for me. For any non-computer geek the Mac is going to be way more intuitive to work with and to take care of if something does go wrong.

Oh, the money trade off, that must be what you are talking about. Yea, I spent a few bucks on my Apple computers, but when it is all said and done to get a Windose based computer that can do what my macs can do you are starting to get pretty close in price...

 

[Rich]

Since IWalker has vowed not to post back in this thread, I feel the need to do so on his behalf. IWalker never stated that Microsoft was better than Apple, only that it was better for him. His gripe was more with the holier-than-thou tone that some of us Apple devotees take when pushing our beliefs in the superiority of the Macs, and I think he has a valid point.

Ultimately, this is more a matter of opinion and personal preference than factual data, and I think it is important to keep this in perspective as we debate the merits of each system. Surely, we can trumpet the virtues of Apple without belittling or insulting those who prefer Microsoft. The beauty of this forum is the ability of its members to be able to debate facts, opinions, and preferences in a civil and respectful manner, and I think we should always strive for that.

For my needs and my enjoyment, I prefer Apple and am completely dissatisfied with the overall nature of Windows software development. But I also understand that there are plenty of people who will always prefer Windows and that's fine, too. To each his own. I just hope we can tone down the rhetoric just a bit and respect the differing opinions of others.

As always, just my two cents worth.

 

[lugano]

I agree with you, Rich. I never said that Microsoft users are suck0rz or inferior people. But I do think that _some_ of them are plain uninformed and/or living with misconceptions and myths concerning the Apple platform.

All I want to achieve with my posts is to spread the informations I have gathered in years and years of daily work, and my ultimate goal is to convince people to take a deeper look at Apple. Only then they can argue that this or that is better for them, and they might discover a better way of doing things. I mean, not knowing that Microsoft Office (Word, Excel, Powerpoint) exists for macintosh, too, (and the documents are totally compatible with those created on the windows platform) makes me shiver.

Iwalker is open-minded, too, because he clearly stated that he will switch if we can show him something worth switching... that's the point: finding all the factual arguments which sustain our claims and also finding the specific aspects of computing that he, and people like him mostly do on a daily basis, then pointing out that it's easier and faster to get them done on the Mac side.

One of the things that unites us on this forum is the passion for high quality music reproduction and gear. Personally I try to get high quality in all the aspects of my life, from shoes to olive oil, maximizing the return of the cash I spend. Apple hardware is priced similarly to both Dell or Compaq machines. Although the Macintosh costs more when compared with a home-built machine, the notion that Apple hardware is expensive is not true. The company's computers don't cost appreciably more than a manufactured x86-based computer.

In my personal opinion, a hands-on hour with a mac is time well spent in order to reach a platform allowing for a better understanding of the facts.


http://www.apple.com/science/whymac/myths.html

http://www.roughlydrafted.com/RD/Home/1052F769-AC24-4892-8937-E3E90BCFD5CC.html

http://www.informationweek.com/news/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=196800670

http://www.mlive.com/mbusinessreview/west/index.ssf?/base/test/117518040597210.xml&coll=12

 

[MickeyVee]

I did open that spreadsheet (which strangely enough is in .xls format...a Microsoft format) !

From what I recall, Excel was originally desiged for the Mac
There's room for both in my world and I own both. I picked up a demo iBook and formatted the drive and relaoded the O/S in no time. No drivers, just the wasy online updates. Try doing that with a PC. They're just both tools and I enjoy both of them. (just like I enjoy my mix of ML mains/centre and B&W rears)

 

[Rich]

Lugano,

Obviously, I agree with your viewpoints regarding Apple vs. Microsoft. I think it is helpful to have a civil debate about the facts and user experiences between the two systems so that those who may be uninformed can have more understanding about the differences between the two brands.

My concern is that we Mac Lovers often come across with a very high-handed air of superiority in our promotion of Apple, which can be insulting to some Windows users and can actually turn them against any idea of ever trying a Mac. The comment in your signature line: "Have you downgraded to Vista yet?" is the type of rhetoric I refer to. I understand it represents your (and my) belief in the (lack of) value of that OS, but ultimately it is a sarcastic and condescending way of saying: "Windows Users Suck!"

I don't mean to single you out, but that was just a clear example of what I am trying to get at. I think we should try to enlighten others with our knowledge and experience, but I also think we should be careful not to alienate them with a classist air of superiority. This is true whether we are discussing Apple vs. Microsoft or Martin Logan vs. Wilson Audio.