jmanny
Active member
Oh that's not bad!
ESL with a problem
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jmanny
Active member
The internal power supply was delivered today (ML said thats the same as a bias board), so I swapped it with one of the speakers. It honestly didn't really change anything. The woofer volume is about half the volume of my other speakers too. I see other parts inside the speaker cabinet, do you think it could be one of the other parts? I assume theres a crossover in there? Could that be the issue?
Washing the panels yourself if they are not clear will not make them sound like new and the sonic improvement may last a year or two. Inevitable need new panels.
Washing the panel and resulting great improvement in sonics will clearly indicate dusty panel reason for weak sonics
First buy the correct power cables from ML.
We are progressing from smallest expense to the largest.
Hope you bought ELS from relative or friend or reputable dealer and last from stranger.
Depending on how much you paid for ELS and from whom purchased Risk is there you got a good looking ELS with partial functioning parts. Hope this is not the case.
Next step buying correct power cable. Then giving the panels a good rinse. Allowing them to dry completely. Be patient.
jmanny
Active member
Lol I bought them off of a stranger that acquired them from her father. Her and her father claim they were perfectly working but haven't been used in about a year so they really just sat in the corner of a spare room. Ive been talking back and forth with ML support and sent them the power supplies Ive been using and they said they're the correct ones. I changed the internal power supplies today and they both still have real low output. So far Ive hooked up the speakers using a Fosi V3 monoblock (each), Denon AVR-S760H, and an older Pioneer VSX avr and had the same issue with all. Ive been told it could potentially be because the ESLs need a solid 4ohm capable amp, but I've never had any issues powering any 4, 6, 8ohm speakers with them ever.
Lol I'm not gonna lie, I'm pretty nervous to wash the panels. Do you know of any tutorials out there that show exactly what kind of soap to use and everything?
StimpyWan
Well-known member
Shower Cleaning PDF thread.
Shower cleaning PDF file at the top of main ML discussion forum has relevant advice.
Wash the panels only if they through careful and close observation are dusty. And you know other ELS parts function well. Normally a last resort. And for ELS minimum 10 years in operation.
Other parts need to examine for fault before washing panel:
Audio transformer.
Crossover circuit.
Have replaced high voltage power supply.
Original model specific ML power cable.
Do not wash panels if they are transparent. In good condition.
I can only speak for myself or based on my Experience. I rinsed until running neutral temperature water was clear and not use soap of any kind. A mistake I made was to squeeze when wet the panel to determine if dry. When panel was dry front and back separated at the place where I had applied pressure. Please be patient.
Wash the panels only if they through careful and close observation are dusty. And you know other ELS parts function well. Normally a last resort. And for ELS minimum 10 years in operation.
Other parts need to examine for fault before washing panel:
Audio transformer.
Crossover circuit.
Have replaced high voltage power supply.
Original model specific ML power cable.
Do not wash panels if they are transparent. In good condition.
I can only speak for myself or based on my Experience. I rinsed until running neutral temperature water was clear and not use soap of any kind. A mistake I made was to squeeze when wet the panel to determine if dry. When panel was dry front and back separated at the place where I had applied pressure. Please be patient.
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jmanny
Active member
Yeah the panels aren't dusty or anything, they're in pretty good condition (image attached). Is the audio transformer on the crossover? I reached out to ML asking about the crossover inside the speaker cabinet so I'll probably get a response tomorrow. I would imagine that if it's not the internal power supply, it'd be a crossover issue since the subwoofer volume has low output as well as the panels, but this is my first time with electrostatic speakers ever so I could be wrong.
I asked about this scenario in a Shane Lee video about ML, he said since they're 4ohm speakers, If you don't have a good enough amplifier it's gonna struggle to power the speakers. But I've never had issues powering any 4ohm speakers with my AVR or the Fosi V3 monoblock amp, so I don't know
Attachments
StimpyWan
Well-known member
Here's the crossover board. Ignore the loose caps, from another project.
Just 4 capacitors, 3 inductors, and 4 resistors.
jmanny
Active member
Do you think that's what causing the volume to be so low from both the panel and the woofer?
StimpyWan
Well-known member
About the only way the crossovers could cause this issue, is if they're damaged. Damage could be the result of amp/receiver clipping.
Maybe pull the bottom port panel, and inspect the crossovers. Check the 4 *********** resistors for discoloration from over heating? Damaged resistors could cause level imbalances.
https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/650091046-anthem-mca-225gen2-stereo-amp/
Highly recommend. Hope you can afford 1500$. New price 2500$.
Powe amplifier may be in extremely good condition if is the one owned by MLO member tmort.
https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/650055820-anthem-mca-225-gen-1-power-amp-black/
Less expensive at 700$. Both amplifier sound great and are great match with EM-ESL.
Highly recommend. Hope you can afford 1500$. New price 2500$.
Powe amplifier may be in extremely good condition if is the one owned by MLO member tmort.
https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/650055820-anthem-mca-225-gen-1-power-amp-black/
Less expensive at 700$. Both amplifier sound great and are great match with EM-ESL.
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Tmort
Well-known member
Yes the anthem amp does very well with ESL’s, albeit I’m currently using it in a bi-amp set up driving the woofers and a Sanders Magtech for the panels….
Russr
Well-known member
Looking at the stats and power supply of the Fosi's, probably not a great match. As mentioned above, older Anthem MCA or Bryston 4BST/SST will get you there. I know the Class D aficionado's will clobber me for this, but if your power amp power supply doesn't weigh 20+lb, probably not going to have the reserves to make your panels sing...
Sergey Bukreev
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I have checked my Ascent I with S/N decoder: both panels are December 2004. However, I was told that most of their life the speakers were sitting in the storage, they look like new.
At first auditioning after storage they sounded very dull and one panel was lower in sound. I have vacuumed them with industrial vacuum cleaner and what a difference! All problems are sorted now! Pops and cracks are also gone!
There is a fain hiss from both speakers though but I think it might be due to high humidity.
The question is: if the panels were in little use but still 20 years old, they need to be replaced anyway?
If it is a case, I better return them back to the seller.
At first auditioning after storage they sounded very dull and one panel was lower in sound. I have vacuumed them with industrial vacuum cleaner and what a difference! All problems are sorted now! Pops and cracks are also gone!
There is a fain hiss from both speakers though but I think it might be due to high humidity.
The question is: if the panels were in little use but still 20 years old, they need to be replaced anyway?
If it is a case, I better return them back to the seller.
If the panels have degraded it's very obvious. High frequencies will be very muffled, and the woofer will be overpowering. ML speakers are known for their sparkling high end, if you don't get that, they likely need new panels.
I recall reading a post somewhere years ago that ML allegedly "fixed" the panel fading problem by adding the music sensing circuit that de-energizes the HV bias supply whenever no music signal is detected.
This implies that the fading occurred because the bias supply on earlier models kept the diaphragm charged continuously (24/7). It follows that panels that are energized for a longer time fade faster than panels that are energized for a shorter time.
Excessive humidity can cause corrosion, and reduces the breakdown voltage of the air which can cause arcing if the panel is driven hard. Also, dust buildup holds moisture which crates shorting paths for arcing and/or draining charge off the diaphragm (reduced output)-- but these are acute, immediate effects that are correctable by cleaning the panel, and may have nothing to do with age or fading over time.
In my opinion, fading is solely the result of the diaphragm coating losing conductivity over time, solely due to total time charged, and does not occur in storage.
My view is that age alone is not a concern provided the speaker plays with no pops or rattles, and does not sound bass-heavy (an indication the panel has faded).
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Sergey Bukreev
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When I first set them up straight after storage, they were very dusty. The sound was dull without a top very much and one speaker was lower in output.
I then vacuumed them with strong industrial vacuum cleaner after discharging for 12 hours. That made a great effect! The tops are back: very detailed and airy. Al pops from the panels are also gone.
However, the hissing level has been reduced but did not go away completely. One panel is hissing more than the other one.
It is noticeable if I put my ear next to the speaker. Shoud the panels be completely silent?
I have to admit though that it is very humid and I remember that my Quads behaved in the similar way with the hiss.
BTW. The limitation of the Quad ESL-2905 vs Ascent I is noticeable straight away at playing Rush Far Cry.
StimpyWan
Well-known member
What gear are you using? Amp? Tube or SS? Could the ML's be exposing a system issue?
Sergey Bukreev
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I use SS amplfication.
One of the speakers is plugged direct into wall socket. Another one is to power strip along with the other equioment. Brian from ML tech support advised both speakers must be plugged direct to wall sockets.
I am going to try that.
G'day mate, came across your post and the troubles you're having with your ESL's.
Just a quick note: There's no speaker in the world that operates on a fixed Ohm rating. Every manufacturer will present their specs as "nominal impedence." This basically means, that on average ratings, the speakers nominal load to start off with hovers around 8 Ohms for example. However, as the speaker plays tunes, this rating fluctuates with frequency range, and can vary as high as 22 Ohms and as low as 1 Ohm!
ESL's are notorious for a wide impedence swing, and this is the number one cause for many so called "capable" amplifiers to simply run out of puff! In fact, they go poof! Not all amps are even built the same standards, and some have very puney power supplies but the designers won't state that because if compared to real power amplifiers, their performance would look very embarrassing.
The typical impedence swing on ESL's are as high as 20 Ohms and drops to 1 Ohm in a blink of an eye! In some models, especially full range stats (Monolith, CLS, CLX) that impedence can drop to less than 1 Ohm, around 0.7 Ohms, which is pretty much a short circuit. And this is where the amplifier craps itself.
I'm not a fan of driving ESL's with AVR's and those types of fany featured gadgets... they really don't have the required power supplies to drive ESL's optimally. They're not designed to do so, rather they focus on HT and video applications, which don't require large power supplies to drive difficult loads. HT speakers are easy to drive and they present a benign load to the amplifier, thus the dynamic bursts and loud bangs in movie tracks... that's what AVR's are designed for.
However, this doesn't mean that the AVR makes you're using cannot drive your stats, they will but upto a certain limit. Hence, not optimally. The speakers that you used safely before the ESL's, where your AVR amps had no issues driving, are simply not ESL's! Their impedence swing must have been a far easier load to drive, hardly ever dropping below 4 Ohms. We're talking 2 Ohms or less when it comes to ESL's, the power amp must provide high current with highly stable voltage in order to control, drive and grip the ESL effectively. Only well designed power supplies are capable of doing this, regardless of Class A, AB or Class D operation in the Output stage.
I looked through each of your AVR model specs, they seem to be just about ok for low level tunes, audio and video, definitely NOT high level. By using these types of AVR amps at high levels, you will cause significant damage to the ESL stat panels, there's no doubt about that! But like I said, at very low to moderate levels, it will barely get by and you'll be able to hear tunes or whatever is playing but these types of amps are not suited to drive ESL's. They all have power ratings of only so many watts at 8 Ohm loads, they don't state their specs at 4 Ohms, 2 Ohms and less than that. For example take any well known power amplifier that's known to drive difficult loads: Parasound, Anthem, Bryston, Krell, Classe', Magtech, Plinius, Aragon, Mark Levinson, McIntosh, Moon- SimAudio, Pass Labs, Jeff Rowland, Dartzeel, Dan D's designs, CH Precision, Solution, Boulder, Gryphon, Burmester, Vitus and the list goes on... these are real amplifiers that will drive ESL's to top flight! They all have one major factor in common, and that is they all possess rock solid power supplies. They don't flinch under stress one bit and can handle impedence swings from high as 30 Ohms down to 0.5 Ohms, no issues at all. Such impedence swings in ESL's are referred to as "reactive loads" this is where the impedence reacts to the frequency range in opposite effect. So for example, when the ESL's reproduce a bass note, the impedence actually rises to over 22 Ohms then when the stats panel reproduce a high note with lots of treble and extended highs, that impedence drops to less than 1 Ohm!!! That's the scary part that will make most amps and AVR's run out the door.
Anyway, like I said, you can still use your AVR amps but with caution please. I would very highly recommend getting a dedicated power amp or multi-channel power amp since you're into HT... partnering that with the AVR's that you have will drive your ESL stats far more effectively. You'll never know until you've actually tried one out, then you'll realize just how weak those power supplies are in AVR's.
Note: Power supplies refer to: Mains Transformers, Output transformers, Capacitors, current buffer stages, voltage output devices and fast switching output devices to meet the demands of driving, and controlling difficult loads.
Hope that helps. Don't give up on your ML ESL's, and they do seem to have a problem. What you've done so far is the correct approach by contacting ML tech support/service, they'll definitely attend to it. Just be in touch with them and as our valuable members here have advised, just be patient. Once sorted out, you'll be happy as, and once you get the right type of amplifier, you'll be amazed at what those ESL's are really capable of.
Cheers, RJ
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