Dangerous new find about an old subject

[tsd2005]

Fact: A well designed acoustical room is better than $25,000 worth of expensive wire.

Lets look at the company that to me is the biggest Snake Oil Salesman of them all:

Transparent Audio. Ever open their little black boxes? Nevermind, that isn't the point.

Lets talk about how Transparent Audio (now referred to as TA) tries to get an extremely well known Dealer into the TA selling business. This is a first hand experience:

1. First they wined and dined us in Indianapolis during CEDIA.
2. They then flew us out to their home base in Maine during early October (a month later).
3. They decide to blow us away with their demo room.

Now lets discuss this demo room:

1. Isolated Slab, yes slab.
2. 5 layers of thick sheetrock.
3. Isolated walls from the floor.
4. The middle of the room is itself an Isolated Listening Area.
5. Every INCH is covered with different RPG Panels.
6. Even the Air vents were acoustically treated.....

So what gear do they have to show us the impressive power of TA cables?

Wilson Audio/Mark Levinson combo.

Our response? Nice ROOM! We didn't go with TA. We could find no reason to. Everything they showed us was in our opinions a product of room and equipment design. If they had showed us some inferior product in an ok room that all of a sudden sounded better with their cable they might have had me hooked.

Instead all I thought was "sweet room."

I also thought later that it was interesting that they went that out of the way to make such an amazing demo room. How would I know it wasn't the room more than the cable? You wouldn't. That I think was their point.

So if a Snake Oil Salesman believes that a perfect room helps sell oil....

 

[DTB300]

Well, you left out part of your quote which is most pertinent, "or any at all." This implies that one bass trap makes no difference, which in my case is just not true, and the difference was measurable.

True...I did leave that out and it does put across a sense of absolutely no help. But.... there are people who have put in one trap and have complained publicly to Ethan that no differences were made. Ethan replied back stating that one would not help them out in the grand scheme of things. So my point was people should not think of bass trapping as a one or two trap solution. It does require multiple trapping for proper bass response "fixing"

The OP listed a link which rejects cable company claims and takes the position that if you can hear it, you should be able to measure it.

And conversly if you can measure it, you should be able to hear it. Unfortunately this has been proven not to be true many times over. So the debate will never die, and will never be resolved.

That statement makes great sense to me, esp. in light of $10,000 speaker cables from one company, with more from others no doubt in the pipeline. If there are no ways to correlate sound differences with measurements, I am skeptical that the differences exist, which leads to the dreaded blind testing protocol, which most audiophiles abhor. Sound differences can be measured and have been done so by speaker makers for decades. This is not cutting edge science. My opinion for the OP is there is no valid evidence that cables sound different, so your time and money are best spent elsewhere.

That is one of the great infinite debates with cables - ones who say they can hear a difference and the ones who say they cannot.

My take is, if you hear a difference and you want to spend "X" money, go for it. It is your money and your setup. For those that cannot hear a difference, then they can use their money elsewhere for other products or components. Personally I hear differences between cables...some slight, some quite different, but I never push that on anyone. As with purchasing components, we each have to decide what it right for each of us.

But as I agreed with you and others, room treatments need to be looked at by everyone if they want to improve their sound, as it will only get as good as the room allows.

Dan

 

[DTB300]

Nice to see ya Dave. This forum has always been civil IMO cause of the type of members we have. I respect everyone's opinion and give my own for what its worth. Its not politics, security, food or medical care so our differences in opinion are not that important in the big picture, so I do my best to keep it all in perspective.

atty....Same opinion here for me. So Dave, we are fine...but thanks for looking out for us

We have very civilized discussions (give and take) here compared to other forums. I believe we know each of us has our opinions, and we each have our own tastes and preferences.

The main trouble with forums, is we have to read what the other person types, but if we were discussing the same thing in person, much of the "discussions" would not occur.

Dan

 

[theWB]

speaking of room accoustics,has anyone used the Audiotec bass traps and can tell me about their effectiveness. they're only $45 bucks a piece.
http://federalstereo.stores.yahoo.net/auusabatr.html

 

[tsd2005]

My take is, if you hear a difference and you want to spend "X" money, go for it. It is your money and your setup. For those that cannot hear a difference, then they can use their money elsewhere for other products or components. Personally I hear differences between cables...some slight, some quite different, but I never push that on anyone. As with purchasing components, we each have to decide what it right for each of us.



Dan

What I want to know in all this debate, how is it when I exchange certain cables for others, the SPL measurements of the system can change (very slightly, but they change)?

I also wonder why the Audioholics review says its on consumer audio. Do these guys know the prices of some of the cables used in a studio?

 

[DTB300]

What I want to know in all this debate, how is it when I exchange certain cables for others, the SPL measurements of the system can change (very slightly, but they change)?

I have never measured SPL differences myself. But if the cable had an increase in SPL this could be confused as a difference in sound - agree?

With you being an EE, is there anything in regards to the Resistance, Capacitance, or Inductance that would casue such a result?

Dan

 

[Craig]

I have never measured SPL differences myself. But if the cable had an increase in SPL this could be confused as a difference in sound - agree?<?XML:NAMESPACE PREFIX = O /><O< font O<>

Disagree...if the SPL is different than it should sound different. At least it would have the same effect as changing the volume which is a difference in sound (but not necessarily a difference in sound quality).

With you being an EE, is there anything in regards to the Resistance, Capacitance, or Inductance that would casue such a result?

Interesting that a cable would cause a change in SPL. It would be a good addition to the test to know what these differences are and that there would be a correlation.

However, how do you accurately measure pleasing sound or music? I really don't think you can because music is subjective and an art form. How do you scientifically measure whether art will be pleasing to the viewer or listener? <O></O>


<O></O>

Sure you can measure specs such as impedance, resistance, capacitance, inductance, current and so forth. While those specs can be useful in determining compatibility with other equipment do they actually translate into measuring whether or not one will sound better than the other? <O></O>

You often hear that there is no scientific proof that cables make a difference. I am certainly not an EE but I am unaware of any scientific electronic tests that actually translate into telling us that a certain component is going to sound good to our ears. If there are any such tests then please share. <O></O>

<O></O>

Why is it that some components that don't test so well (compared to others) often sound better to most people than components that achieve good measurement results? For example; vinyl usually has lower specs than CDs but vinyl can be more pleasing to listen to for most. Tube gear usually tests or measures at lesser distortion specs than solid state but many people prefer the sound of tube gear over SS. <O< font O<>



Distortion comes in many forms and distortion is not necessarily a bad thing. <O></O<><O< p>
The ultimate measurement is Roberto's motto... <O></O>

From my own experience I've found that some speaker cables and interconnects do have different sounds and price does not reflect necessarily translate into better or a more preferred sound. The differences are usually subtle but some cables I've used have sounded better than others or at least they had different characteristics. <O></O>

Subtle changes are important when you consider the accumulative effects of subtle improvements in your system and more importantly in your room. In other words; changing a single pair of interconnects may not even be noticeable but perhaps the accumulative effect of changing all interconnects, speaker cables and power cables
</O<></O></O<>

 

[DTB300]

Disagree...if the SPL is different than it should sound different. At least it would have the same effect as changing the volume which is a difference in sound

Ummm..I think you agreed with me. That is unless this typing instead of talking to each other confused us Let me look at what I typed:

But if the cable had an increase in SPL this could be confused as a difference in sound - agree?

So what I was saying .....if the sound (SPL) increased or decreased someone MIGHT say that the sound of the cable changed. Not bright, duller, more bass, but it changed and that could be confused as a "different" sounding cable. Follow me now?

You often hear that there is no scientific proof that cables make a difference. I am certainly not an EE but I am unaware of any scientific electronic tests that actually translate into telling us that a certain component is going to sound good to our ears. If there are any such tests then please share.

From my own experience I've found that some speaker cables and interconnects do have different sounds and price does not reflect necessarily translate into better or a more preferred sound. The differences are usually subtle but some cables I've used have sounded better than others or at least they had different characteristics.

Not sure if you were replying to me...or a general reply to this thread...

Yep...I agree to both these points you made, not only in this same thread, but in previous ones.

The trouble is, there is the other side of the fence who will swear up and down, that if you cannot measure it, it cannot be different. So let those who think that way, keep thinking that way. Same thing with Vinyl, CD/SACD/DVD-A, Tube, Solid State, etc. etc. Good thing we have so many choices in this hobby or else what would we have to discuss???

Dan

 

[tsd2005]

So what I was saying .....if the sound (SPL) increased or decreased someone MIGHT say that the sound of the cable changed. Not bright, duller, more bass, but it changed and that could be confused as a "different" sounding cable. Follow me now?


The trouble is, there is the other side of the fence who will swear up and down, that if you cannot measure it, it cannot be different. So let those who think that way, keep thinking that way. Same thing with Vinyl, CD/SACD/DVD-A, Tube, Solid State, etc. etc. Good thing we have so many choices in this hobby or else what would we have to discuss???

Dan

Some interesting responses. Lets talk about these so called measurements. The problem here is that you can measure changes in speaker cable. Some have less skin effect, etc. than others. These are MEASURABLE differences. What happens is that the Die Hard "Its all snake oil," crew will say that they are so slight that you couldn't possibly tell the difference! Its .1 of a decibel different in one area, possibly combining to a .3 difference with all combined. That can't possibly create "more open sound," etc.

Bottom line, give me the equipment and I can measure Resistence:

R=L/CA

R is Resistance, L is length, C is Conductivity, A is the cross section area. Now at school some buddies and I measured Monster, Zipcord, AudioQuest, Nordost, Kimber, Transparent, Acoustic Zen, and Magnan.

Interestingly R changes. So the arguement that there are no measurable differences is BS. After the measurements we conducted 3 different DBTs (Double Blind Tests) with 20 volunteer students for each group.

I don't have the paper on me, but something like 22% claimed to hear no differences or their answers for what was different was inconsistent and all over the place. Something like 13% were solid in differentiating sound and picking what they considered best. However over 50% listed in order the exact SAME opinions.

The crazy thing was of those majority they listed from best to worst those with the lowest R measured results to the highest R measured results for worst (zipcord).

We knew that if our numbers held up and we could test literally thousands of people we could come out with a Theory of Resistance for speaker cable. We tried to get grants to due it, but were unable to.

One of my partners on the project went so far as to see if Skin Effect had any differences and his results were too inconsistent to prove anything. He made his own cables with a constant resistance but a skin effect difference. However the lowest skin effect measured cable in our study the Magnan had a Resistance that matched 2 other cable types. The majority of the majority picked the Magnan as a better cable. His further testing couldn't match those results though. However again he didn't test a large enough amount of people to try and prove anything. He could have had 40 people that fit into that 22% of our Resistance test. Same thing goes with our 60, the majority could have had Golden Ears where as the real majority might not.

To this day I believe that lower resistence can create a better sound. I believe it has something to do with signal strength, but those measurements would provide the Die Hard Snake Oil Theory people the arguement that the differences should be indistinguishable by the human ear. However I witnessed it with my ear, and more than 50% of a test group did as well.

So when people ask me what cables I suggest I usually say Acoustic Zen, Nordost, Kimber, Magnan, and Audio Quest (not in that order). Pick from those what sounds better for you. We don't carry all those lines at our store, but we do carry some of them. So I at least know its not "snake oil." I'd hate to rip anyone off.

Interestingly both of my fellow students now work in the Audio field. One for a cable manufacturer and one for a speaker manufacturer. The one who works for a cable manufacturer told me they have a policy to not be in contact with the "zealots," because they will argue it out because they will refuse to believe. If a rep of their company gets caught up in it, it would be negative for the image. He was told to do his job as best he could and write any white paper he wants, but don't argue about it.

Speaker measurements are different. You can definately hear the improvement in sound from a speaker with better timing. Which is something my ear likes.

 

[DTB300]

Some interesting responses. Lets talk about these so called measurements. The problem here is that you can measure changes in speaker cable. Some have less skin effect, etc. than others. These are MEASURABLE differences.

Agreed that you CAN measure differences...but the argument has always been, do these mesurements always equate to a certain sound difference? Over and over sound change does not always equate to the measurement changes or results. That has always been the problem with cables. It seems to be a vicious circle.

Interestingly R changes. So the arguement that there are no measurable differences is BS. After the measurements we conducted 3 different DBTs (Double Blind Tests) with 20 volunteer students for each group.

I don't have the paper on me, but something like 22% claimed to hear no differences or their answers for what was different was inconsistent and all over the place. Something like 13% were solid in differentiating sound and picking what they considered best. However over 50% listed in order the exact SAME opinions.

I am not a statistics person, but don't these results, for a small group, not really prove there is a change present? Over 1/2 had the same perceptions, but not sure if that meets a "true statistical" proof of results? Maybe someone in the Statistics area can jump in here with a better answer.

To this day I believe that lower resistence can create a better sound. I believe it has something to do with signal strength, but those measurements would provide the Die Hard Snake Oil Theory people the arguement that the differences should be indistinguishable by the human ear. However I witnessed it with my ear, and more than 50% of a test group did as well.

But being only one part of the LRC model, can the industry state that a low resistance cable will always sound better no matter what the other values are? I could be that lower resistance cables "might" be a start - at least it was for you and your testors.

Again for me, I will always base my cable purchases on my preference of sound based on what the cost will be. From the small amount of testing I have done (5 or 6 vendors?), as the prices increased within a companies product, the changes in sound became less and less.

Dan

 

[tsd2005]

Agreed that you CAN measure differences...but the argument has always been, do these mesurements always equate to a certain sound difference? Over and over sound change does not always equate to the measurement changes or results. That has always been the problem with cables. It seems to be a vicious circle.

The problem has been that nobody has really done a massive study on Audio Cables. Dr. Johnson's work is a legitimate study of how Skin Effect shouldn't cause anything. A lot of people put the "placebo," effect into account when describing what you and I hear. We want to hear it so we do hear it. What about the people that don't know anything and hear it? It is a vicious circle.

I am not a statistics person, but don't these results, for a small group, not really prove there is a change present? Over 1/2 had the same perceptions, but not sure if that meets a "true statistical" proof of results? Maybe someone in the Statistics area can jump in here with a better answer.

Well here we have to go into medical results. If I had the paper I could show you that its been proven by medical studies that a small percentage of the population somewhere just above 10% can't hear subtle sound differences in certain frequencies. There is another somewhere around 10% that have a lot of trouble recognizing the differences and can only do so after being shown examples of both repeatedly.

Throw in normal hearing losses due to age, whatever that are slight enough to not need hearing aids...

That means that close to a fifth of the population might think that Bose sound remarkably similar to a Martin Logan.

At the same time another percentage closer to 15% has the ability to hear subtle changes in sound that others can't place. The Yin to the Yang in the medical world I suppose. These people have been labeled by Audio Industry people as those with a Golden Ear.

When a scientific study is being done about the sound differences of something (in this case cables) the average human listening ability needs to be considered.

Interestingly our professor handed our paper over to a Hearing expert who thought that our results showed that those hearing studies were remarkably accurate even for such a low number of test subjects. It was her opinion that the 13% who were good at differentiating each cable, but picked based on their opinion that was away from the majority were likely those with what we refer to as Golden Ears (those 13% shared opinions much sharper than even the majority).

Statistically we had too low of a test group to substantially prove anything. However it was a large enough group with high enough test results to show that a further study was likely needed. Remember we weren't testing between 2 objects but 8. Each in different LRC ranges.

Now each of those brands claims they do more than just create LRC (well zipcord is zipcord). However the majority (over 50%) all picked in exact order the best as the one with the lowest resistance capacity in this case the Acoustic Zen cable. With the exception of 3 cables that were remarkably measured out almost identical (Nordost, Kimber, Magnan) the majority did a good job of picking them in exact order, with those 3 mixed up but most labeling the Magnan as better.

The fact that it had 8 variables raises the accuracy of the statistics from a slightl majority (just over 60%). Does it prove anything? No, we'd need the same results from thousands to be able to lay claim to proof.

But being only one part of the LRC model, can the industry state that a low resistance cable will always sound better no matter what the other values are? I could be that lower resistance cables "might" be a start - at least it was for you and your testors.

Considering that we were using zipcord and then cables that all cost around $500 for 8 foot speaker pairs... I found it interesting that they were picked by the majority in the order of LRC measurements. Consider the exceptions there were plent of people who heard nothing to note. However a small percentage heard the differences but placed them in an entirely different order. Acoustic Zen dropped to 2nd, and Nordost went into first.

A large test could find those numbers to grow, and others to shrink. I'd definately state that LRC is important. For me it was interesting because I'd gone back for my masters and had already spent years working in the audio field working with some younger brighter guys on that test.

Again for me, I will always base my cable purchases on my preference of sound based on what the cost will be. From the small amount of testing I have done (5 or 6 vendors?), as the prices increased within a companies product, the changes in sound became less and less.

Dan

This is something I've found to also be true. There is definately a price point with a diminishing point of return in cables. I've found interconnects don't need to cost more than a $100 or so, Speaker Cables around $700 or so. Of course your opinion may differ.

There is definately a reason to spend money on cables. I've witnessed it first hand. In the professional field they don't use cheap cable.

 

[audioraptured]

dangerous new find

An update: we have skylites in our main room and this has always caused a problem, (or it has in my opinion). I had my wife make curtains to cover up the 2'x4' openings and placed them on a flat plane, level with the rest of the ceiling, so it looks smooth, and since the color is white, blends in very well. Again, read wife approval. The room is about 19'x26' and the angle of the roof makes the sides at the top of the wall 8' feet; running up to the center at about 13.5'. (Yes I do hate getting up on a ladder and bending backwards). HOWEVER: In my humble opinion, there is a change in the sound of the room that is noticeable, and more pleasant. The sound from the couch seems smoother, fuller, faster, and more complete.
Naturally, since this has improved the "sound" of the room, we are now going to have new curtains around each of the windows behind the Ascents, (or as she puts it, "treatments"). For some reason, we have to go out to dinner first, (since I am the one who has spent money on these big thick wires that just collect dust), and then to a specialty store for fabrics, which of course she gets to chose whichever she wants and then have them made to our dimensions. And now a "discussion" has begun about putting in PLANTS to make it more "homey". I'm sure many of you have had these "discussions"; you know what I mean!

 

[audioraptured]

dangerous new find

forgot picture: