DAC Do or Don't?

[ejspain]

Guys, I'm (almost) sorry I made the comment about cables! It sounds like @ejspain is quite happy with his new amps and not in the market for a DAC at the moment, and I think that's great.

I also think it's great if anyone *listens* to various cables and makes educated choices on their personal value, for their ears, for their system, for their room.

There's no offense intended for anyone here. I know that experimenting is fun - for me - and merely want to encourage that for others as well. Experimentation does NOT have to be expensive. But I'm definitely not interested in debating the merits - or lack of - with anyone who sees the issue as black or white.

Perfect post. No need to apologize...it's part of the hobby. Absolutely agree tho...everyone should experiment with cables until you find what works for you and your system. Correct again on the amp...completely satisfied so far ...pumping the brakes on the DAC.

 

[amey01]

There's no offense intended for anyone here. I know that experimenting is fun - for me - and merely want to encourage that for others as well. Experimentation does NOT have to be expensive. But I'm definitely not interested in debating the merits - or lack of - with anyone who sees the issue as black or white.

It IS fun to experiment. I think we all enjoy it in some capacity.

It is EQUALLY fun to discuss, debate and challenge one's prejudices.

I hope noobdy is offended. I am certainly not. And it is never my intention to offend anyone.

Problem with experimentation comes when people promulgate expense on things which have zero scientific base. Furthermore, what makes me actually angry is when vendors peddle products with zero scientific base (and a whole lot of marketo-gumble. That is actually fraud.

One example is saying a USB cable reduces jitter. Another is peddling non USB-IF compliant cable for lots of money. Yet another is a certain high-end DAC manufacturer that doesn't have USB input for the reason that it "introduces noise into the sensitive analogue circuits" (yet USB can still be connected (electrically) through a coax cable which transferrs all the said noise!! ) And a ostensibly cheap USB>SPDIF converter can somehow isolate this expensive DAC from bad "noise", but they can't include this isolation themselves while they are asking $20,000 of you. WTAF!

Sounds more like an excuse for not including a current requirement. No USB means no DSD. And no ultra high-res PCM too. For $20,000!! No thanks. (And an extra no-thanks for lying to me).

If you want to experiment, all you need to do is move your speakers around. Or play with room treatments. That will unequivocally give you a greater difference in sound than any USB cable.

Unfortunately, that is too much like hard work for a lot of people. And it is easier and more fun to buy sexy cables and plug them in and out.

 

[Ronin]

I have always kept with the manta of "do no harm" with cables vs "how good can it get".... I find , for me anyway, once I hit a reasonable level of decent cable, you can switch out $10K cables all day and I can't hear it. I settled on Kimber for almost all my cables. The only real $$$ I spent are on Kimber Monocle speaker cables (I think speaker cable does deserve consideration) and a AQ Hurricane power cable for my amp.

I'm also a USB guy and (God forgive me) I stream from a PC. I read all about the noise being generated etc but I did an A/B with a Bluesound and it was worse. Then tried a Aurender and it sounded great but so does my set up without it so I punted. I do love to play with DACs though and you can definitely change the presentation with many- for better or worse.....

 

[Gordon Gray]

As always in audio, opinions are subjective and there is no "correct" truth. Even if that opinion is not based on science.

 

[LaserMark4]

Apologize if this was already addressed in previous posts in this thread-- but my question is concerning DAC's as they relate to AVR receivers.

My Onkyo AVR, being used as a pre-amp, has an "AK4458 384 kHz/32-bit DAC, (8 Channels x 1)" with "32-bit Digital Signal Processing Engines". I am getting really super exceptional sound out of this unit over my previous dedicated NAD pre-amp- just amazing.

My question is, are all component feeds coming directly into current day AVR's ( i.e.- CD/DVD/Blu-ray decks, streamers, XBox, Chromecast, etc.) being processed through the AVR's DAC, and therefore, ends up being a DAC processed/influenced output?

https://www.akm.com/us/en/products/audio/audio-dac/ak4458vn/

 

[Robert D]

I went from using my Marantz receiver to decode to using a dedicated player and the sound is very noticeably better now. I'm glad I did it. Below is what I use. Its affordable. They have a full line with some much more $$ and also units that are a DAC only.

https://www.luminmusic.com/lumin-d2.html

 

[StimpyWan]

Apologize if this was already addressed in previous posts in this thread-- but my question is concerning DAC's as they relate to AVR receivers.

My Onkyo AVR, being used as a pre-amp, has an "AK4458 384 kHz/32-bit DAC, (8 Channels x 1)" with "32-bit Digital Signal Processing Engines". I am getting really super exceptional sound out of this unit over my previous dedicated NAD pre-amp- just amazing.

My question is, are all component feeds coming directly into current day AVR's ( i.e.- CD/DVD/Blu-ray decks, streamers, XBox, Chromecast, etc.) being processed through the AVR's DAC, and therefore, ends up being a DAC processed/influenced output?

https://www.akm.com/us/en/products/audio/audio-dac/ak4458vn/

All sources, using a digital connection (HDMI, S/PDIF), have to be processed through the DAC. No other way to hear analog sound.

 

[ejspain]

I went from using my Marantz receiver to decode to using a dedicated player and the sound is very noticeably better now. I'm glad I did it. Below is what I use. Its affordable. They have a full line with some much more $$ and also units that are a DAC only.

https://www.luminmusic.com/lumin-d2.html

Is this a dac, a streamer or both?

 

[Robert D]

Is this a dac, a stream or both?

Both. All in one. I just plug it into my Marantz receiver using analog out through rca plugs. I'm pretty sure you can do digital out too and use another DAC.The DAC in this is nice though. It also has balanced out terminals for XLR.

 

[Robert D]

Bought here, and also got the S Booster. They installed it for me . They talk on the phone too. They were awesome to deal with. Very personable!

https://upscaleaudio.com/products/lumin-d2-network-music-player
You should be able to find the S booster power supply on there too. I'd have them install it.

The weak point of Lumin is the phone app isn't spectacular. It's fairly bare bones, but works well.ive had NO bugs. I liked paying for good hardware and not so much for flashy software.

 

[ejspain]

Both. All in one. I just plug it into my Marantz receiver using analog out through rca plugs. I'm pretty sure you can do digital out too and use another DAC.The DAC in this is nice though. It also has balanced out terminals for XLR.

What does the rest of your system consist of? What source are you using for music? And you say this made a noticeable difference in your music?

 

[Robert D]

What does the rest of your system consist of? What source are you using for music? And you say this made a noticeable difference in your music?

I've got a nice Marantz receiver, 11 channel Atmos. Aragon 2 channel amp for the Prodigy speakers. A focus center channel speaker with a Emotiva monoblock amp and 4 ML in ceiling speakers for atmos. 4 other in walls for surrounds.

I play my music on Tidal. It has MQA. The difference in sound is very noticeable. Prior to this I was streaming music using Apple on my Sonos. I streamed the music digital to the receiver and had it decode.

 

[ejspain]

I've got a nice Marantz receiver, 11 channel Atmos. Aragon 2 channel amp for the Prodigy speakers. A focus center channel speaker with a Emotiva monoblock amp and 4 ML in ceiling speakers for atmos. 4 other in walls for surrounds.

I play my music on Tidal. It has MQA. The difference in sound is very noticeable. Prior to this I was streaming music using Apple on my Sonos. I streamed the music digital to the receiver and had it decode.

Nice setup...bet it sounds great. Now instead of the receiver decoding the music from Tidal, the dac does it.

 

[Robert D]

Nice setup...bet it sounds great. Now instead of the receiver decoding the music from Tidal, the dac does it.

Yes. Apparently the DAC in the Lumin is far superior to whats in the Marantz and the Sonos. You get what you pay for.

 

[ejspain]

Yes. Apparently the DAC in the Lumin is far superior to whats in the Marantz and the Sonos. You get what you pay for.

Gotcha...maybe once all this new gear finishes burning in, I'll revisit the dac idea. After all I would like to get the best sound (I can afford) from the gear I have.

 

[Robert D]

Gotcha...maybe once all this new gear finishes burning in, I'll revisit the dac idea. After all I would like to get the best sound (I can afford) from the gear I have.

Yeah, there is no rush. I bought a combo player/DAC because I dont have much more space left in my cabinet and I think it keeps price down some not buying two pieces of hardware. Some guys on here say its better to buy separate DAC and player because you can then upgrade the DAC later on and use the same player or vice versus. Im fine with just having this one device and I think it will last me a long long time. The chasis is built like a tank, heavy metal, just like my music!

 

[Leporello]

My question is, are all component feeds coming directly into current day AVR's ( i.e.- CD/DVD/Blu-ray decks, streamers, XBox, Chromecast, etc.) being processed through the AVR's DAC, and therefore, ends up being a DAC processed/influenced output?

Not if you're feeding through the analog inputs. That option is growing more scarce, though, with many components. My very first Roku streaming box had composite video, component video, optical spdif, stereo analog audio, and HDMI. Those disappeared, one by one until all that was left was HDMI and as they got more annoyingly small and light so that the HDMI cable will yank it off the shelf if you don't anchor it somehow, encouraging people to just get the "streaming stick". Progress, I guess.

 

[Leporello]

I went from using my Marantz receiver to decode to using a dedicated player and the sound is very noticeably better now. I'm glad I did it. Below is what I use. Its affordable. They have a full line with some much more $$ and also units that are a DAC only.

https://www.luminmusic.com/lumin-d2.html

I may have missed it, but there is no total price given on the home page, only the monthly installments. The only way to find it was to add it to my cart. Not cheap or "cheapish", but reasonable for what it appears to be.

 

[Robert D]

I may have missed it, but there is no total price given on the home page, only the monthly installments. The only way to find it was to add it to my cart. Not cheap or "cheapish", but reasonable for what it appears to be.

https://upscaleaudio.com/products/lumin-d2-network-music-player
That's where I bought mine. I linked it a bit later. I also bought the Sbooster power supply and kit for the Lumin D2
. That was another $400 or so I think. Its on their site. They even installed it for me.

It's not cheap, but its a great value IMO. The rest of their line is much more pricey, and like many other players I didn't want to spend more than $3k. Many audiophile quality players and DACs are much more.

I'm very happy with this so far. I've had it for about a year I guess, can't remember!

 

[ejspain]

As for the “prose” there can be a huge difference in DACs but then there might not be. By and large the sound of a DAC comes down a lot more to implementation than it does specific hardware.

Much of the difference perceived in sound will depend on the resolution of the system used as well. A top system set up to perfection in a great room is going to reveal a lot more music than a budget DAC can deliver.

Just like phono cartridges at a certain point things sound different, and that may or may not be worth the money spent.

If you’re agonizing over differences in thousand dollar DACs there’s not that big of a difference, and much of that is due to how much better the components have become to assemble a 1000 DAC these days.

Where a lot of the top DACs in the 10-100k range excel is in the way they handle things once they’ve been decoded. Seriously you might be surprised at how much more involving a used 5 year old DAC that used to have a 5-10k price now for 1-2k sounds than a lot of todays 1000 DACs.

makes sense.