DAC Do or Don't?

[Leporello]

Yea that's "the thing!" Mannnnnnnn you literally took the thoughts right out of my head. IMHO the stats paired with the A31 is truly magical...and it's (the amp) not even broken in yet. So I was thinking...REALLY??? Adding a DAC will make my system sound even better??? IDK!!! Parasound recommends 150hrs burn-in...I've been running it 2 days and I can't stop drooling.

I bought my Parasounds used, so didn't even have to enter that controversy. Yes, electrolytic capacitors need to "form", though that ought to be done at the factory IMO. And please don't mind me if I roll my eyes a second time when people start talking about burning in cables. And yes, ESL diaphragms, after their initial tensioning, do stretch out over time. It would be a very foolish engineer who designed them to sound their best out of the box. So there's where burning in is a real thing.

I also bought my CLS II's used, though they came with new in the box panels. I suppose the sound did shift over time but, like you, I was initially so enthralled by the sound I didn't' really notice, or care. They definitely did not get worse. IMO we're talking, for burn-in, second order effects with speakers, and third order effects with amps. And you're relying on aural memory, which is notoriously faulty.

Bottom line: enjoy your new amp, and don't worry about it.

Just to throw another opinion into the mix: when I felt the need for an external DAC, it was the Benchmark DAC1 Pre. If I felt the need again I would definitely consider another Benchmark. Plus, it would fit the old rack tray. But I think they are slightly above your price point.

 

[Jeff@TONE]

You know that cable thing is just weird. But at the end of the day, your ears are probably a lot more sensitive to minute changes than instruments can measure.

I've always looked at cable in the context of a high performance audio system is the last 2-5% of performance to be extracted. I always get disappointed when my peers talk about cable being a "component level upgrade" or when they approach six-figure expenditures for cable as "necessary."

I've definitely heard differences in cables, but it's never been mind bending. I always tell people to optimize every single aspect of their system before going down the cable path. Same with the mega expensive vibration control devices. And you'll notice that TONEAudio has precious few cable ads and no expensive rack ads. I've left millions on the table over the last 18 years because I don't take cable ads from the super expensive cable guys.

But this is another long discussion for another day. Again, don't buy a piece of wire you can't return. Cable Company has their whole "lending library" so this is another way you can hear a handful of things in your system.

 

[Russr]

BTW, folks, my comments about USB cables were just that - about USB cables. I'm not going to talk about analog signal carrying cables... as everyone has kind-of agreed on, there just no telling what my ears vs. your ears are sensitive to, etc.

The thing I take huge issue with is gold-plating (in the figurative, project-type terminilogy!) cables meant for digital signal transmission -USB, TOSlink, etc. Not the DACs they plug in to, not the make/brand/clock frequency of any of the components... just the cable. A digital signal is just that - it has a "0" (Zero) value and a "1" (one) value. No shades of grey, no subjective components to consider, just Zero or One. The standards for digital signal tranmission (and there are LOTS... Sync & A-synv serial, shielded and unshielded, IEE1394, USB-IF, 802.XYZ, etc., etc., etc.). Each and every one of these standards have comprehensively designed and documented protocols for handling bit-level (i.e. a Zero or One getting screwed up in transmission) or frames or packets being dropped (yeah, I know that's a broad generalization, but c'mon, we're in 2023!).
So long as the signal gets through, the cable (electons or photons) has done its job. What happens beyond that (in DACs, Pre-Pro's, etc.) is far more open to subjective interpretation. Have at it and enjoy!

 

[Jeff@TONE]

All that might be true for sending data to a printer. But again, why I'm not going down that rabbit hole.

 

[amey01]

All that might be true for sending data to a printer. But again, why I'm not going down that rabbit hole.

Why is data (that happens to represent music) different from any other data?

(Regarding analogue cables - no argument from me. I use high-end analogue cables too).

 

[Jeff@TONE]

I can't even begin to unpack all this. Do a cursory search on the web for some of the better digital designers. (hardware, not cables) There are some pretty succinct explanations, a lot to do with timing errors. If I understand them all correctly, there's a lot more going on when decoding high resolution audio, than sending data to a printer.

Again so much of this depends on what you're listening to. I've tried a few higher end ethernet switches that promised the moon, and didn't hear a thing. Sent them back, mfrs were cranky.

I know this is going to sound *******, but I'm using a dCS Vivaldi as a reference digital front end. And system to match. If I can't hear even a perceived difference with that as a digital front end, I'm doubting someone with a DAC/Player in the $1,000 -$10k range is going to hear it either. And it's not something I'm going to tell you you need, either.

I have always told my readers with cable, vibration control and power products, to audition in their room/system/software and if you're straining to hear something, it's probably not there.

That being said, we have heard a few things that really make a marked difference, and those are the ones I always suggest.

 

[StimpyWan]

Yup, jitter matters. Anything, that can introduce timing errors between the 1's and 0's, is best avoided. Timing issues can affect everything in the music, pitch, low level micro detail, spaciousness. So, while you can use USB for audio transmission, the same criteria used for picking a good S/PDIF cable, should apply to USB as well. Construction quality, impedance, it all matters.

 

[Jeff@TONE]

Yep, that's what they tell me too. What I have noticed with some USB cables was a definite difference in the spatial qualities of the music and brittleness on the extreme HFs. And, even the Vivaldi ONE sounds markedly better with an external word clock, so I'm hanging my hat on timing is everything...

 

[Russr]

But soft, what sweet Bit ...
By any other name...
Is still just a Bit.
That darling little particle/wave hurtling/propagating charge/EMF down that cable/fiber careth not one jot if it's a lowly printer Bit or a MegaBuck sound system Bit. It's a bit. A Binary digIT. A Zero. Or a One.

According to the USB 2.0 Standard, Transmitted signal levels are 0.0 - 0.3V for a Logical Low (Zero), and 2.8 - 3.6V for a Logical High (One). These are not subtle voltage differences, and the result is a signal comprised of Zero's and Ones in the same order they "entered" the cable at the source. No subtleties, no interpretations... O or 1.
Whether it's on this forum or the Arduino Forum, CNN.com or Foxnews.com, a BIT is a BIT. And it's a damn good thing too.. imagine if those lowly Printer Bits got confused on the way to the paystub/check printer, or the title certificate printer, or....?!

Oh, the humanity....

p.s. Quick note on Jitter. When DACs were new on the market (both stand-alone and integrated in various hifi components), Jitter was real. Timing/clock issues, along with tiny buffer sizes meant you would get audible artifacts coming through. But that was over 30 years ago. It would be MORE expensive for a chip manufacturer to produce a DAC of the same lousy quality (from 30 years ago) than it does to make a "Meh, that'll do" DAC today. A lot of tech has improved when it comes to chip manufacturing. Downward pressure on "bang-for-the-buck" (think Moore's law) in processing power, memory capacity and speeds, etc. have ALL contributed to a significant lowering of the tech/price ceiling in so many ways. I don't have specific stats, and maybe someone on here does, but I would wager that a top-of-the-line DAC chipset/circuit from 20 years ago is now equalled or surpassed by the DACs in a $69 Android TV Box! I think it's great... then again, I don't get too emotionally attached to any one specific component in my sound systems (EXCEPT my MLs and Bryston amps!)

Regarding SP/DIF-TOSLink vs. USB, here a great link (tho it's 5+years old)
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...battle-of-s-pdif-vs-usb-which-is-better.1943/

Enjoying the convo... hope no one is taking the back-and-forth personally... it's not meant that way at all.

 

[ejspain]

You know that cable thing is just weird. But at the end of the day, your ears are probably a lot more sensitive to minute changes than instruments can measure.

I've always looked at cable in the context of a high performance audio system is the last 2-5% of performance to be extracted. I always get disappointed when my peers talk about cable being a "component level upgrade" or when they approach six-figure expenditures for cable as "necessary."

I've definitely heard differences in cables, but it's never been mind bending. I always tell people to optimize every single aspect of their system before going down the cable path. Same with the mega expensive vibration control devices. And you'll notice that TONEAudio has precious few cable ads and no expensive rack ads. I've left millions on the table over the last 18 years because I don't take cable ads from the super expensive cable guys.

But this is another long discussion for another day. Again, don't buy a piece of wire you can't return. Cable Company has their whole "lending library" so this is another way you can hear a handful of things in your system.

Fortunately I have NEVER road the "$1000+ cables are needed for your system to sounds its best" bus. To a large degree, I trust the science then believe my ears.

Started screwing around with this hifi thingy back in 1987 so I've heard a few thangs. Never forget the day I walked into a hi-end shop in the 80's, the guys asked was I an audiophile...I said huh? He said, perfect come listen to this. He rolled out these speakers that looked like a small door...a pair of Magnepans. WOW!! Was my first thought!!! Where the heck is the sound going to come from?

Connected a set of cables and we listened. AMAZING. Connected another set of cables. SUPER AMAZING. Walking around the speaker....never saw or heard anything like it. He asked, which cable did you like best . After a few more plays, my ears liked the $75 Canare cable over the $1700 Cardas. Of coarse at the time I didn't know crap about this stuff but I was all in after that session and I've NEVER spent more than $200 for any cable.

Thirty-Six years later, I have Canare 4s11 speaker cable and Canare L-4E6S interconnects in my system. I also love Mogami and Belden cable. All VERY GOOD, high quality, Audiophile grade cables, you won't have to drive Uber a month to get the extra cash.

Now to cut off all the shots fired; I emphasis, these are the cables "I like" in my system. Have I listened to "more expensive" ones before making my decision? I sure did....36 years ago My advice...put cables in "your system" that sounds the best to "your ears" not because someone told you these $2000 cables with a battery will take your system to the moon and nothing else sounds better.

 

[Jeff@TONE]

You keep blathering about "trusting the science" You liked your canare cables better than cardas. What's scientific about that? And not really knowing how your room is tuned, what your hearing is and what your own personal bias is, the fact that you prefer a set of basic cables neither means better cables don't reveal more music, don't sound "better" to someone else, or you're just crabby about stuff you can't afford.

And seriously stuff has changed a lot in 36 years. That's great you've NEVER spent more than $200 on a cable, because at the level you're playing it would be a waste of money. So many people spend way too much money on wire, it doesn't make a difference, and the only conclusion they can make is that cable doesn't matter. All that being said, I still question the value of the really spendy wire. It still hasn't moved me enough to get the credit card out and push the buy button.

The dudes with the systems that can afford to buy $70k speaker cables, aren't worried about driving Uber to pay for them. I can't play there either, and I do this for a living.

 

[amey01]

I can't even begin to unpack all this.

Well, you should try if you are going to spend big money on USB cables (you said you don't - no prob........just a generic statement. IE: the "royal" you)

explanations, a lot to do with timing errors.

Before we discuss timing errors (or jitter), consider:

definition: asynchronous --> not existing or occurring at the same time. It doesn't require active synchronization between the receiver and the sender.

definition: buffer --> Buffer is a region of memory used to temporarily hold data while it is being moved from one place to another

definition: hold --> staying in one place without moving, static or not changing

Let that sink in for a while.

Picture view here:
https://www.computerscience.gcse.guru/theory/synchronous-and-asynchronous
Now......how can jitter or any timing error exist on a digital line that "does not occur in time"?? How can jitter exist in a DAC that "holds data statically in one place without it changing" before it re-clocks it and processes it?

There is no jitter on a async USB connection BY DEFINITION OF THE CONCEPT!

Sure, jitter was a concept with SPDIF connections back in the 1980s, but not with async USB it 'aint.

Any manufacturer saying "jitter" is a reason why their USB cables sound better/worse/different is either:
* Lying; or
* Doesn't understand basic definitions in the English Dictionary.

Either way - not an outfit I want to give my money to.

 

[amey01]

Yup, jitter matters.

Jitter matters alright! It is just that it doesn't exist (by the core basic definition) on an async USB line!!! (see post above).

That's why we use async connections. I know, the marketing folk love terms like that - but it does actually mean something.

Anything, that can introduce timing errors between the 1's and 0's, is best avoided. Timing issues can affect everything in the music, pitch, low level micro detail, spaciousness.

Funny how you've heard this impact when "timing errors" don't exist by definition. Serious moment.


PS: As per Russr's post - yes, jitter was an important thing with 1980s non-buffering SPDIF DACs. That is because the clock (timing) signal was transmitted along the SPDIF cable to the DAC. The DAC did not have a buffer, and the DAC did not have its own clock to re-time the data. It had to "lock onto" whatever timing was send down that SPDIF cable (remember the "lock" lights on all those old DACs?)

Nowadays, there is no clock/timing signal sent along the USB cable. Even when there is (if you choose the SPDIF option), the data is stored (static, remember) in a buffer, and the DAC re-clocks it before processing.

There is NO WAY timing can affect the sound - because the bits are merely being loaded into a buffer.

Can you still buy a non-buffering DAC? I don't know.

If you look at the voltages as a percent - back with analogue cables, you may well hear the difference between 88.93447v and 88.93446v. But with digital, a zero is 0v and a one is 100v. If that ends up being 3v and 93v (or even 20v and 60v) - systems can still determine what should be there. That is why digital systems are so reliable and resilient. You can send data to outer-space and back in milliseconds, and it still arrives perfectly. A little half-metre USB connection in your audio system presents no problem for the technology!

 

[StimpyWan]

I worked professionally in digital audio for almost 20 years. All the gear had an external clock source, for proper work sync. No jitter issues. And I do admit that I'm not an USB audio expert, as I never used USB for any serious studio work. I've only used USB for casual listening.

 

[ejspain]

You keep blathering about "trusting the science" You liked your canare cables better than cardas. What's scientific about that? And not really knowing how your room is tuned, what your hearing is and what your own personal bias is, the fact that you prefer a set of basic cables neither means better cables don't reveal more music, don't sound "better" to someone else, or you're just crabby about stuff you can't afford.

And seriously stuff has changed a lot in 36 years. That's great you've NEVER spent more than $200 on a cable, because at the level you're playing it would be a waste of money. So many people spend way too much money on wire, it doesn't make a difference, and the only conclusion they can make is that cable doesn't matter. All that being said, I still question the value of the really spendy wire. It still hasn't moved me enough to get the credit card out and push the buy button.

The dudes with the systems that can afford to buy $70k speaker cables, aren't worried about driving Uber to pay for them. I can't play there either, and I do this for a living.

 

[ejspain]

"Blatheting??" Really!!! I don't think you know what I can afford....wait...do you? Sounds like I touched a nerve Listen guy, at the end of the day, you and everyone's feelings I hurt should do/buy what makes them happy and don't get all twisted up over poo. My response wasn't meant to crap on anyone's position...only sharing my experience. No love lost...

 

[JLasher22443]

Soooooo, about DAC's. I'd like to recommend Chord if you haven't purchased anything yet. LOL The Cutest is a great DAC in my opinion!

 

[ejspain]

Soooooo, about DAC's. I'd like to recommend Chord if you haven't purchased anything yet. LOL The Cutest is a great DAC in my opinion!

IDK @JLasher22443...I think I'm going to pump the breaks and let all this crap settle in before doing another "thing". Super appreciate all the recommendations tho...learned a few things.

 

[Gordon Gray]

This is not about USB but it does involve digital cables and please do not say that it is expectation bias, bad hearing day, etc.

I previously posted about my iFi Zen Blue V2 and found that the $6 Amazon toslink was a better sounding connect (more transparent by a significant degree) between the Zen and my CDP Dac vs my $100 DH Labs coax. Had both cables hooked up to my Luxman and the Zen so A B was very fast / easy. No volume difference. This was verified by other folks. Simple or not so simple question. Why?

 

[msimanyi]

Guys, I'm (almost) sorry I made the comment about cables! It sounds like @ejspain is quite happy with his new amps and not in the market for a DAC at the moment, and I think that's great.

I also think it's great if anyone *listens* to various cables and makes educated choices on their personal value, for their ears, for their system, for their room.

There's no offense intended for anyone here. I know that experimenting is fun - for me - and merely want to encourage that for others as well. Experimentation does NOT have to be expensive. But I'm definitely not interested in debating the merits - or lack of - with anyone who sees the issue as black or white.