Roger that. Duly noted.
DAC Do or Don't?
- Thread starter ejspain
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Gordon Gray
Well-known member
As Jeff stated, ability to hear or not hear an audible difference in audio systems is substantially dependant on your system's transparency. Many anti cable folks seem to forget that or don't want to acknowledge that basic fact.
Regarding cables. My nephew sent me an iFi Zen Blue DacV2 to try. I used the dac in my CDP and hooked up the coax and optical cable to the unit so I could do an A B comparison. The $7 optic clearly sounded better than the $100 DH Labs coax. Go figure.
So the answer to the OP's question is that it depends on many factors and I would highly recommend an in home audition with a return / full refund option. Many purchase options in the e retail market.
And no should one should ever tell or judge any listener on what that listener can and cannot hear regarding cable differences, etc. To do so is arrogant and pretentious.
Regarding cables. My nephew sent me an iFi Zen Blue DacV2 to try. I used the dac in my CDP and hooked up the coax and optical cable to the unit so I could do an A B comparison. The $7 optic clearly sounded better than the $100 DH Labs coax. Go figure.
So the answer to the OP's question is that it depends on many factors and I would highly recommend an in home audition with a return / full refund option. Many purchase options in the e retail market.
And no should one should ever tell or judge any listener on what that listener can and cannot hear regarding cable differences, etc. To do so is arrogant and pretentious.
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user 49612
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ej time to quit playing around and get yourself a couple real amps. I am of the mindest work backwards from the speakers component wise and then go back forward to the speakers cable wise. M1200s will make everything better
Leporello
Well-known member
I've concluded containing myself is the right thing to do, for the most part. You're not going to convince any true believers in magic cables that they're deluded, even though, in my opinion, they are. I see it as saving myself boatloads of money. I like the way my music on my system sounds, for the most part, and am willing to take the risk that I'm missing out on something. In the end, people spend money on what gives them pleasure, and I'm not about to tell anyone what should give them pleasure, if it's not harming anyone else.
I did try, in an open-minded fashion, to hear differences between digital cables at an Audioquest demo at a NYC audio show. I was not the only person in the room who heard none. But, Aduioquest has been caught rigging cable demos.
Leporello
Well-known member
I'm not disputing Schitt may make great gear at a fair price (though I haen't seen or heard any). I understand one of its founders is Mike Moffat, who is a highly regarded designer of some of the best early digital gear. And I'm not at all averse to shiny objects. I just think Moffat's choice of tweaking people (especially unsympathetic significant others) with something that looks like a taboo word is a questionable business choice. Also, where the OP is concerned, if his spending on his hobby is a source of domestic strife, a cost/benefit analysis might be in order. Some of the benefits are highly hyped by audio magazines.
On the other hand, the actual level of strife and his "fake divorce" may be something the OP is tweaking us with. I get taunted about some of my purchases, but what I earn above and beyond what's required to maintain a comfortable household is mine. I was particularly saddened by the story of the guy who brought home a pair of CLX Arts and the spouse unconditionally put her foot down. I am blessed not to be in that sort of relationship.
StimpyWan
Well-known member
Schiit co-founder, Jason Stoddard (along with his wife), coined the company name. No blame on Mike Moffat. But, Mike seems to have a pretty twisted sense of humor too, so I doubt Mike had a problem with it.
ejspain
Well-known member
I just picked up the Parasound A31 for my LCR.
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amey01
Well-known member
It is also arrogant and pretentious to insinuate that someone's system "is not revealing enough" if they don't hear a difference.
Scientifically, there is no difference [this is indisputable]
When applied to any other aspect of digital technology, there is no difference (ie. do printers print clearer with a Lush^3 cable??) [this is indisputable]
Furthermore - when you are using a cable which is not USB-IF compliant, you are probably compromising and diminishing your performance. The Lush ^3 is an example of a cable which does not comply with USB-IF specification.
So - if anyone does hear a difference - that is disputable. Who knows.
What I'll say (and what I've said before) - your money is probably better spent on real upgrades.
<and>
If your system is that dependent on cables, then it is more than likely indicative of a flaw in the electronics themselves.
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Gordon Gray
Well-known member
Bad choice of words on my part. My apologies.
If a system is more transparent / revealing and all other things being equal including hearing acuity, etc., one will hear more details than one that is not.
Transparency can be impacted by many things. One example of the latter is a room that has standing waves that causes bass clarity issues which comprises midrange clarity amongst other negative artifacts. Same applies to an overly bright / reflective room. There are many other examples.
That is not meant to be an insult and I am sorry that you seem to interpret that phrase in that manner. No disrespect intended. It is just a simple fact. Oh well.
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Gordon Gray
Well-known member
Where? By whom? Please provide examples and proof.
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Heyfey
Well-known member
Agree with Gordon 100%, the only thing I'd change is I'd stick in "to me" after "clearly sounded better." Appreciation of music reproduction is almost entirely subjective, and component (I include cabling) changes can be difficult or impossible to quantify. I've tried different cables and preferred them because they sounded "more relaxed" than the old stuff. I've tried things that made things sound "more coherent." To me the ultimate barometer on a component change is does it make me less aware that I'm listening to electronics and lets me just dig the music. If it does, I'm keeping it. If someone else disagrees, questions my sanity, etc. I'm perfectly fine with that. And I'm still keeping the new kit.
I can understand how more costly advanced cables would sound better for speaker cables because it's analog. With something like a USB cable, it's digital.
amey01
Well-known member
What I want to see is some objective proof.
Some sort of in-room measurement that shows that the cable is making an audible difference. Something that is not an aberration - something that is repeatable and consistent.
Heck - I'm even happy if you cheat and just test the cable in isolation - as long as you can show that some sort of data/music parameter is being varied - not just measuring ohms or something benign.
For me - I've tested different SPDIF cables and checksumed the output. IT WAS THE SAME NUMBER!!
I haven't re-tried with USB cables, but I think we all know what the answer would be. I am certainly confident enough.
Gordon Gray
Well-known member
It was clearly audible and confirmed by nephew who listens to a Sonos system at his house. But I am confident you would not believe me regardless of the number of folks that heard the difference. And no response to Post No. 29? Why? You seem to want to dismiss or argue about anything I say. So out of character Adam. Bye bye.
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amey01
Well-known member
Post 29?? Not really anything to say. Apology accepted.
Granted, it was a poor choice of words - but really - you didn't need to apologise because my comment didn't realate to your comment (I understood your intent) - but more along the general community lines (I hear it everywhere) the patronising comment that "if you can't hear what I hear, then it is your system which is not revealing enough" or variation thereof "Your ears are tin ears".
Not saying that I am not as guilty. If you gave me a test (your system, your room) and even if there was a difference - I would probably dismiss it.
I'm just like that though. I need to understand the reasoning for things before I accept them. I recall 20 years ago when I learnt to ride a motorcycle - we had counter-steering explained to us, and told to duly go out on the track and execute. I was hopeless!! There was no way anyone was going to convince me that turning the wheel away from where I wanted to go was the correct thing to do. Until I went home, logged in and researched it. It only took 10 minutes to understand the physics of a motorcycle.......and bingo, all was good.
Same with DACs - if someone can explain to me the difference, and show me proof, I'll be far more open-eared. But I do have a very good understanding of the USB standard as prescribed by USB-IF (as I work in the field) - and (at this stage), I understand (and can prove) that there is no difference.
And as per post #33 (and others before it) - I open the floor to anyone who can show otherwise.
As our memory is very poor (with dynamic, complex things like music) - what may help is to translate the exact same principles to something static. Something that does not change with time, and rely on your memory, emotion or mood. Something like a printed page. So print a page with an exotic USB cable, then a standard USB cable. You don't have to memorise anytihng. You have the page to refer to in as much detail as you wish. For as long as you wish. Does the exotic USB cable produce a better quality? You have all the time in the world to assess, and printed proof when you do find a difference.
If (for some bizzare reason), it only applies to audio and not any other digital data, then fine. Do the same thing with a music file (stream it to a storage device) and checksum the outcome. Is the checksum the same?
If (and now you're really drawing a long bow) it only applies to the DAC's handling of the data (notwithstanding it buffers it, and applies error correction and re-clocking to that buffer) - then fine too. Measure the output of the DAC and show us all.
There many ways this can be shown. It's just no one has.
Digital equipment has been dependent on precise data transfer for as long as its inception. That is not to say errors don't happen - but tthat all the systems and standards are resilient to them. They have to be. If they were not, they don't work.
Geez - I'm the first person to wish a system (or errant cable somewhere) would mistake the leading zero on my bank account for a leading nine......
But alas, digital systems just don't do this guys.
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Gordon Gray
Well-known member
We can certainly agree to disagree. FWIW, I have always trusted my ears. When I audition new gear and do an A B comparison, I will perform several times to avoid expectation bias. It took me two months to decide between my Cary 306 SACD CDP and the Luxman d06u. I have little interest in the tech behind it.
Question. Assuming you have or want to upgrade a piece of gear and absent of listening / not trusting your hearing, how do you decide if you buy or not?
Question. Assuming you have or want to upgrade a piece of gear and absent of listening / not trusting your hearing, how do you decide if you buy or not?
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Leporello
Well-known member
I heard about it a long time ago and forgot the sources. But you can Google it just as well as I can:
https://forums.audioholics.com/foru...o-exposed-and-addressed-in-open-letter.97696/
amey01
Well-known member
I absolutely trust my ears. I listen extensively before buying anything major.
In the modern world of online ordering, I have bought nothing which can not be returned - and I have heard every online purchase (in some capacity at least) before I have purchased it. But I assure you, I have never been bothered with ordering, trying and returning a USB cable.
Ultimately - we're both audiophiles; with audiophile-level systems; audiophile-level interests; on an audiophile forum. I'm sure we both have very good sounding systems. The means to getting to the end is not so important.
Leporello
Well-known member
Oh, so that's "the thing"? Congrats. IMO providing problematic speakers with power amps equal to them is at least an order of magnitude greater difference than DACs. And anyone with any sort of ML electostatics or ESL hybrids and suitable amps behind them has all the resolution they need. It's not an issue.
High resolution is useful for resolving inner voices in polyphonic music, or subtle nuances in phrasing. If that's what makes your leg shake go for it! It certainly floats my boat. It's of questionable use in resolving differences between digital cables, particularly nonexistent ones.
ejspain
Well-known member
Yea that's "the thing!" Mannnnnnnn you literally took the thoughts right out of my head. IMHO the stats paired with the A31 is truly magical...and it's (the amp) not even broken in yet. So I was thinking...REALLY??? Adding a DAC will make my system sound even better??? IDK!!! Parasound recommends 150hrs burn-in...I've been running it 2 days and I can't stop drooling.
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