Call me crazy but they (magic dots) work!

[User211]

I have a nice TT, Ron. See my system using the link below and go to the end.

You'll have to post to the UK, though. But that size won't cost much at all.

Just PM me for my address if you want to go with it.

 

[Ethan Winer]

Sorry, I meant to reply to this yesterday.

* 2008 science is complete;
* we know everything;
* there is nothing more to learn;
* there is nothing more to discover.

I never said or implied anything like that. However, I'm confident that everything that matters with audio reproduction is quite well known.

Someone famous (forget who) once pointed out that just because we don't know everything doesn't mean we don't know anything. Audio engineers know a helluva lot about what matters with audio reproduction! So again, I say the burden of proof that there's more to it falls on those who make the claim. Especially since it's well known that people sometimes think they hear a change even when there was none. For example, in a blind A/B listening test, if you play the same "A" three times in a row, some people will still report a change. Yes, I am serious. It happens all the time.

--Ethan

 

[amey01]

So again, I say the burden of proof that there's more to it falls on those who make the claim. Especially since it's well known that people sometimes think they hear a change even when there was none. For example, in a blind A/B listening test, if you play the same "A" three times in a row, some people will still report a change. Yes, I am serious. It happens all the time.

--Ethan

Absolutely- a great deal of the audio quality I get depends on my mood - more than any other factor including any components and the room itslelf. Sometimes the system sounds spectacular, other times ho-hum. This is when nothing other than my mood has changed (or some yet unknown factor, but let's not go there).

I'd love to prove otherwise, but unfortunately I'm not an audio engineer. I'll happily say "told you so" though when/if something is discovered in our lifetime!

 

[Ethan Winer]

Sometimes the system sounds spectacular, other times ho-hum. This is when nothing other than my mood has changed (or some yet unknown factor, but let's not go there).

Exactly. Those that want to "believe" in magic - I don't know how else to put it - look for obscure theories like humidity or whatever. But it's obvious to me that mood is key. So once we accept that the exact same music can sound very different at different times, it's not a big leap to accept that something like a replacement power cord only seemed to make a change.

--Ethan

 

[tonepub]

So once again, anything that you don't agree with is dismissed as magic?

If you plug a distortion analyzer into your power line (Fluke makes a good one) at different times of the day, you will see the distortion components go up and down at different times of the day, depending on peak usage, and who's plugging what in to your immediate grid.

When everyone is running their air conditioner, welding machine, power tools whatever, it's dumping plenty of noise into the line.

That's why so many people say their system sounds better early in the morning or late at night, there are less people on the grid making noise.

This really is pretty basic science and not "mood" or "magic".

 

[User211]

Last two posts - Gentleman's disagreement.

Work it out, guys.

 

[jtwrace]

testing & measurements

I found this article very interesting about testing equipment. Since this has been a major issue on this thread....I also know nothing about Van Alstine.

http://www.avahifi.com/root/audio_basics/1994-01_tire_testing.htm

and another
http://www.avahifi.com/root/faq/faq2.htm

Ethan? Tonepub?

 

[jtwrace]

I'm sure these are Ethan endorsed...:ROFL:

http://www.nathanmarciniak.com/elemental/

 

[jjay]

I sure most people on this forum know Frank Van Alstine's credentials. He is a no BS equipment builder based in Minnesota who builds quality equipment at a fair price. A very knowlegable source when it come to audio.
Jim

 

[Ethan Winer]

So once again, anything that you don't agree with is dismissed as magic?

No, but anything that makes no sense, and cannot be backed up with a reasonable explanation or, better, hard proof, is suspect until proven otherwise.

If you plug a distortion analyzer into your power line...

That's the wrong place to put an analyzer! The only place that matters is at the output of the power amp's speaker terminals. Yes, power lines have varying amounts of noise at various frequencies. But competent circuit designs ignore that through internal filtering, balanced (Class B) operation, and so forth. Jeff, this stuff is trivial to measure! Put your meter or 'scope on the output of your amplifier and see what you get with no audio playing. If the noise is down in the low millivolts there, then that's not why music seems to sound better early or late. Rather, it's perception, rested ears, relief at being off work, and other psychological explanations.

--Ethan

 

[jtwrace]

I sure most people on this forum know Frank Van Alstine's credentials. He is a no BS equipment builder based in Minnesota who builds quality equipment at a fair price. A very knowlegable source when it come to audio.
Jim

Jim

Have you ever heard his equipment compared to a high end name amp? What are your thoughts? Anyone else? That Ultra 550 looks really interesting...

 

[tonepub]

No, but anything that makes no sense, and cannot be backed up with a reasonable explanation or, better, hard proof, is suspect until proven otherwise.



That's the wrong place to put an analyzer! The only place that matters is at the output of the power amp's speaker terminals. Yes, power lines have varying amounts of noise at various frequencies. But competent circuit designs ignore that through internal filtering, balanced (Class B) operation, and so forth. Jeff, this stuff is trivial to measure! Put your meter or 'scope on the output of your amplifier and see what you get with no audio playing. If the noise is down in the low millivolts there, then that's not why music seems to sound better early or late. Rather, it's perception, rested ears, relief at being off work, and other psychological explanations.

--Ethan

Your lack of understanding of circuit design is becoming more and more apparent the more you post.

I think you need to do a little bit more homework. You're sounding more and more like a mid fi guy as you go on. By the way, how many successful amplifiers have you designed?

Most of the better designers I've talked to would completely disagree with you on the importance of clean power.

Same with Frank Van Alstine. Great guy, great basic engineer and circuit designer, but pretty much another flat earth guy. All amplifiers sound the same, cables don't matter at all and he's not even a fan of acoustic treatments in your room. His stuff sounds very good for the money and is very generic.

But to him, anything that costs more than his gear is frivolous.

 

[OldMonolith]

Jeff,
I agree with the things you said about Van Alstine.

At RMAF a couple of years ago, we went into his room. We got into a conversation with him, which dragged out to probably almost 30 minutes. I can't say enough about how much intensity he has for audio, how nice he was and how much we enjoyed the time spent with him.

But a big part of his emphasis is on how much he thinks all things "audiophile" are BS. He is very vocal about this. He applies solid math and measurements to all aspects and thinks that's it. The end result is that his stuff is very solid, well designed, reliable....and all those good things you want...but rather mundane sonically and visually.

Ethan should look into some of the amps he builds. They would seem likely to find common approaches to audio. Certainly its a solid product for a reasonable price. Very good purchase for background kind of music system!

 

[jtwrace]

WooHoo!!! We're back in business. NOW, let's be nice to each other and remember that people may have feelings and we WANT them to be a part of this forum. We do NOT want people to NOT come here.

Let's continue with class.....

 

[Gordon Gray]

Well said Jason.

GG

 

[twich54]

Recess is back in session...play nice !!

 

[amey01]

Someone famous (forget who) once pointed out that just because we don't know everything doesn't mean we don't know anything.

Likewise, someone else famous (forget who too) pointed out that

"a little bit of knowledge is an exceedingly dangerous thing".....

So just because we know a little bit about what matters with audio reproduction, don't:
* Treat it as gospel;
* Be an emu (put your head in the sand) and close your mind to new things;
* Be afraid to learn more.

 

[Bernard]

In the latest TAS, one thing relevant to this thread stands out:

In an interview, the designer of the latest Ortofon cartridge says, "Eventually I'll narrow my prototypes down to two, which will measure and sound very, very similar to one another. But if one sounds better, and the other measures better, we'll go with the one that sounds better even if we can't explain why. Audio design has come a long way, but there's still a lot we don't know".

No comment !

 

[David Matz]

In the latest TAS, one thing relevant to this thread stands out:

In an interview, the designer of the latest Ortofon cartridge says, "Eventually I'll narrow my prototypes down to two, which will measure and sound very, very similar to one another. But if one sounds better, and the other measures better, we'll go with the one that sounds better even if we can't explain why. Audio design has come a long way, but there's still a lot we don't know".

No comment !

Here's Charles Hansen of Ayre on cables from a recent set of posts on audioasylum. He got product of the year last year for the MXR monoblocks and his KXR is the 8th Wonder of the World. Maybe he is crazy also.

....Hi, I used to recommend Cardas Golden Reference because that was what we used, both in our soundroom at the factory and also at home. Since then we have come out with our own cables, which are designed by us and made to Cardas to our specifications. But I can't recommend these according to the Asylum rules.

That said (or actually implied), there are a lot of great cables out there. I think that getting the right sound out of your system with respect to cables will depend a lot on the rest of your components, including your speakers.

For example, years ago Paul Bolin was reviewing our K-1x (pre-e) preamp for Stereophile. I always bring along a variety of cables and tweaks to make sure that they are getting a sound that I believe is representative of the performance the unit is capable of. At that time we were using Cardas Golden Reference cables, so that is what I brought with me.

His system was wired up with Nordost, which at that time had just come out and was the new "hot" cable. The system sounded good, but I put in the Cardas cables just to see what would happen. We both agreed that it sounded better with the Nordost cables, so we put them back in.

So even though I have had excellent results with certain cables in a wide variety of systems, that doesn't mean that they will always be the best cable in all systems.

If there were really one "best" cable, then that's what everyone would be using. (Assuming that they didn't cost $20,000, but that's another story....) .....

....
Several years ago, Cardas introduced the "Reference" cables with a new construction. The previous top cable was "Golden Cross", and the new cables were "Neutral Reference" and "Golden Reference".

The Neutral Reference is more open sounding than the others, while the others are richer and have more body. The Golden Cross tends to sound a bit more mellow than the Golden Reference.

If you are doing A-B tests, the Neutral Reference will sound the most impressive. For long term listening, the best cables will depend a lot on the rest of your system as well as your personal tastes. ....

....
Yes, I have found that all cables are sensitive to being moved around. The Cardas cables are more sensitive than most. And I would guess that I would have preferred the sound of PB's system with the Cardas cables if they had been completely broken in.

Nowadays I always bring the Ayre IBE disc along [ an awesome tweak]. If you have a previously broken-in cable, it will bring it back to ~90% of its full potential by playing the 5 minute "glide" tone.....

 

[amey01]

In the latest TAS, one thing relevant to this thread stands out:

In an interview, the designer of the latest Ortofon cartridge says, "Eventually I'll narrow my prototypes down to two, which will measure and sound very, very similar to one another. But if one sounds better, and the other measures better, we'll go with the one that sounds better even if we can't explain why. Audio design has come a long way, but there's still a lot we don't know".

No comment !

That reminds me of Philosophy 101 - For something to sound good it generally measures well, but something that measures well does not necessarily sound good!