Yeah, Im thinking that too. I think we get spoiled and expect it to continue. Im not sure how long car manufactures produce parts. Many old cars you have to order parts that are not OEM. My Porsche 911 is a 2007 and they still seem to have parts for that, but thats not anywhere near 30 or 40 years.
Another Martin Logan price increase coming August 1st.
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Oh he will be kept in mind in the future for sure
amey01
Well-known member
Interesting perspective, but I do see a fundamental difference.
50 year old Merc - you can still get the required consumables to keep it running.
100 year old Rolex - you can still get the required parts and keep it running.
Other speaker manufacturer - Not applicable. Because you can still get the required parts if you need them, likely to be generic caps, cones, etc.
But a proprietary one-off consumable item (consumable because it has a defined lifespan)......sorry, I see that as different.
Put it this way -
Would you buy a MBL speaker (picked any brand I could think of) if you knew the drivers would blow after 20 years and you couldn't get replacements?
Would you buy an ARC amplifier if you knew all the caps would blow after 20 years and you would have to throw the thing in the rubbish?
Because (however you want to justify it) that is the situation us owners face.
ML have a responsibility here - if they want to sell unique technology, then they also need to provide the unique support required by that technology.
Mmm... that's a fair point mate. Didn't see it that way, actually makes sense. Yes, we're taking risks in buying this sort of exotic gear, no doubt.
Over the years, I've noticed that many audio brands don't support older gear, they simply don't have the resources...
OTOH if ML is supporting older gear by making particular stat panels for its valued customers, that's outstanding support! I would certainly have peace of mind knowing that for another 20yrs at least, I could get CLX panels. However, another 20yrs I'd be an old fella, accurate hearing wouldn't be too flash... hence I'd be looking at downsizing anyway.
I think Magnepan is another company that would supply ribbon tweeters for older panels if required but when it comes to ribbons and stat panels tech, thank goodness there's a small group of techies here who can refurb these, and they do a marvellous job! So if and when that time comes, I'd know who to call only if ML can't offer further support. Hopefully, they are able to train new people all about this stat tech so that they can provide the necessary support. The sad thing is many of the younger gen simply can't be bothered with it.
Damn, I should have learned that trade...
Cheers, RJ
I agree about the young generation. My daughters are 18 and 20 years old. They and all of their friends care very little about audio equipment. Give them an Apple phone and a set of Air Pods and they are good to go. Neither of my daughters is excited about using my older equipment I no longer use. I figured so.e of my audiophile interst would rub off on them, but I was wrong. Maybe its a good thing, certainly a lot less expensive way to live!
I've always loved audio, ever since I was just a kid in grade school. Neither of my parents were into it either. I'm not sure where it came from. I've been hooked ever since I got my first Alpine car stereo in the mid 80s. I'm even thinking about putting a nice system in my next car. I haven't had one since the late 90s. That bug is starting to come back.
I could be wrong, but it seems like the younger generations today have less audiophiles. We are becoming even more fringe.
amey01
Well-known member
Go back to a '70s audio mag, and you'll find the same comments. All will be well.
amey01
Well-known member
I need to make an important point here. I am NOT conflating support with being able to access panels.
Support for older models is not what I am demanding (although it is good if it is possible).
* If a circuit board blows, I am happy to deal with it. I would love ML to have a replacement, however if they do not, there are at least 10 electronics experts in a 50km radius I can take it to.
* If a dynamic driver blows, I can get it re-coned.
* If the box deteriorates, I can get it re-finished.
None of that is true for panels.
So.......support is not the issue. The issue is the availability of a very specialised proprietary item, that is an essential part of a very expensive and exotic product.
Sorry - the manufacturer has a responsiblitiy here.
Does Magnepan replace their panels? I dont know a thing about them, but its a similar technology I suppose. Panels and not regular drivers.
Stefan_DR3
Well-known member
I doubt very much ML considers them consumables, otherwise there would be a replacement schedule (like an engine oil filter) and nobody would buy them. Secondly the speakers will continue to work if the panels are not replaced and they are not thrown in the rubbish. In fact my friend and I have owned various MLs for 15 years (my dealer twice as long) and we never heard of this fad of constantly replacing panels until I came on this forum. Seems like there is a lot of paranoia here.
The fact ML is willing to offer replacement panels for those that wish to restore any speakers to peak performance is a miracle. At the risk of making another car analogy, a warranty only guarantees against manufacturing defects and outright malfunctions, not subjective things like ride quality, squeaks and rattles.
Stefan_DR3
Well-known member
Nope. Even B&W, who once touted they could supply parts for any speaker made in the last 60 years, cannot even supply a missing wall bracket for a speaker 5 years old. And yes it's an awful proprietary part.
amey01
Well-known member
We're not talking about warranty or guarantees (or "support" even). I thought I made that clear.
All I can say is that when I bought my Prodigy speakers they were about 15 years old and I had to set my receiver's gain setting to the max in order to get them to a proper level. I think that was +15, cant remember. Russ here in Ohio tested them and they were down about 15 db if I remember right. He was going to refurbish them but advised he not try because there was too much double sided tape in there to separate the panels. The panels also lost a lot of their topend frequencies and sounded very muffled. They did not sound good unless I ran Audyssey on them, it took off a bunch of bass and then they sounded ok. Once I replaced them they sounded great. The gain is only set at +2 now and the treble is all back. Since the treble is back, the woofers are now able to put out their sound to the best of their abilities without having to cut them off using Audyssey. Huge difference.
So having to replace panels when they get old is a very real thing. Its not some paranoia. My panels werent even 20 years old yet.
Absolutely correct RobertD I can’t believe some people can’t understand the panel wearing out thing. They are basically an electrical machine, and with any machine it will have a life expectancy what is so hard to understand about that. So knowing that you have two choices at your time of purchase 1) understand the panels have a life expectancy and plan on replacing the panels at about the 20 year mark depending on the physical conditions the speakers have been exposed to over their lifetime. And 2) buy something else, good luck finding anything else that will get you the sound of Logans, I’ve been in this hobby since I was about 20 and I’m 64 now and I have had many, many pairs of speakers and equipment in that time and I have found NOTHING that sounds like a good pair of Martin Logan electrostatics. Their are different sounds and many excellent speakers out there with different sounds and it is a very personal thing with no rights or wrongs just different ways to getting to an end result.
So yes the panels do “wear out” the pair of Odysseys I just bought are 21 years old and one speakers panel is on the way out and yes I’ve verified it is the speaker that has the issue not any of my electronics, no matter how you switch sides the lower level stays with that speaker, mine still sound real nice up to what I would say is moderate volume but above that the sound image starts shifting to the side with the good panel noticeably. My new panels are on order and should be here sometime in November. So for me this pair of speakers will probably be the last I will have in my system and for the purchase price of the speakers and the panels I’m just under $4000. You can’t touch a new pair of Logans that come ANYWHERE CLOSE to the sound of the Odysseys give you, and I should add I’ve spent about $800 additional to modify my Odysseys to active crossover on the woofers, which is a whole other story
Fidji99
Well-known member
I was on the fence for some time - but I have pulled the trigger and C18 it is.
Will be picking it up next week. I think it is fitting center to my ESL13 and Trinnov.
Will be picking it up next week. I think it is fitting center to my ESL13 and Trinnov.
Some very strong / ultimate statements made by some here... and demands for replacement panels because they're consumables, since we're buying "exotic items," right...! Anyway, don't need to get all huffed up about it, just make sure you have the resources and the right people when needed! Thankfully enough, I've managed to network well with both the ML distributors and local techies who can do the job. As long as it's certified and genuine parts are used wherever applicable, that's all that matters to me, regardless of being exotic or not.
Pretty much the same goes with Conrad johnson gear. I've been using their gear since graduating from Uni, and they have very strict service policies regardless of how long you've been a loyal customer. If it's current production, and btw, those items start at 16grand in Aus, CJ will definitely support it even after warranty as long as Jeff F (new owner) feels like doing so. However, for the much older gear and vintage items, they won't even bother looking at it! There are certain cases where they still do service only for the top of the line vintage gear. I guess they have their reasons.
Oh! and one more very important thing, just sit back and enjoy those fine tunes whiles you can!
After all, life is short so why make a fuss when the tunes are great.
Cheers maties, peace out!
RJ
Pretty much the same goes with Conrad johnson gear. I've been using their gear since graduating from Uni, and they have very strict service policies regardless of how long you've been a loyal customer. If it's current production, and btw, those items start at 16grand in Aus, CJ will definitely support it even after warranty as long as Jeff F (new owner) feels like doing so. However, for the much older gear and vintage items, they won't even bother looking at it! There are certain cases where they still do service only for the top of the line vintage gear. I guess they have their reasons.
Oh! and one more very important thing, just sit back and enjoy those fine tunes whiles you can!
After all, life is short so why make a fuss when the tunes are great.
Cheers maties, peace out!
RJ
The C18 I have sounds great with my Prodigy speakers. It's a great improvement over my old theater I.
I'm hoping these panels last me longer than the original panels. I don't know what kind of environment the original owner's home had, so maybe they were in bad shape because of humidity or some other factor like smoke.Absolutely correct RobertD I can’t believe some people can’t understand the panel wearing out thing. They are basically an electrical machine, and with any machine it will have a life expectancy what is so hard to understand about that. So knowing that you have two choices at your time of purchase 1) understand the panels have a life expectancy and plan on replacing the panels at about the 20 year mark depending on the physical conditions the speakers have been exposed to over their lifetime. And 2) buy something else, good luck finding anything else that will get you the sound of Logans, I’ve been in this hobby since I was about 20 and I’m 64 now and I have had many, many pairs of speakers and equipment in that time and I have found NOTHING that sounds like a good pair of Martin Logan electrostatics. Their are different sounds and many excellent speakers out there with different sounds and it is a very personal thing with no rights or wrongs just different ways to getting to an end result.
So yes the panels do “wear out” the pair of Odysseys I just bought are 21 years old and one speakers panel is on the way out and yes I’ve verified it is the speaker that has the issue not any of my electronics, no matter how you switch sides the lower level stays with that speaker, mine still sound real nice up to what I would say is moderate volume but above that the sound image starts shifting to the side with the good panel noticeably. My new panels are on order and should be here sometime in November. So for me this pair of speakers will probably be the last I will have in my system and for the purchase price of the speakers and the panels I’m just under $4000. You can’t touch a new pair of Logans that come ANYWHERE CLOSE to the sound of the Odysseys give you, and I should add I’ve spent about $800 additional to modify my Odysseys to active crossover on the woofers, which is a whole other story
Very true! In fact I have a good mate here who bought a very old pair of Monolith III's, I think they were III's... Anyway, the ML Aus distributor didn't have the required parts, obviously not, and ML HQ was willing to send out a brand new set but it was going to cost this chap a pretty penny, as the drivers required changing as well, plus a long wait time. So, he called upon the stat experts here and they fully refurbed those Monolith III's with some very high tech stuff. He's driving them with Nelson's Threshold Statis 800 monoblocks, and man do those vintage Monolith III's pack a punch! The entire thing was refurbed, from panel to woofer and it sounds fantastic! This chap couldn't be any happier, and what made him overjoyed was the fact that when he mentioned it to ML, they gave him the thumbs up! Pics were shared along the way and the techs shared what exactly they were doing. I'm very delighted to have access to such resourceful people, who are skilled and based down unda. They're a very rare breed, and they also can develop trannies if required. One of them is teaching a younger chap, so that sounds promising!
Cheers, and enjoy those fine tunes!
Woof! RJ
Yes true, I do get what you're saying out loud...! take it easy mate, I hear ya!
We all value our gear differently; some value warranty over price, others value the actual item itself more than anything else due to the sound & performance (like me), and others value service and long term parts support. It's easier said than done, and after all it's a business. I'm just bloody happy ML is doing the best they can, through their support network and offering older panels across the globe to any customer! As one member said, there's really no other speaker company that does this. I've been a dealer myself and in fact I called up my mates in Spore and I asked them this very question. They're still thinking... so looks like ML is the only one so far, and good on them!
We all had a good laugh at Quad, for during warranty, we all experienced multiple panel and tranny failures. The local Quad importers AVR couldn't do diddly! And IAG didn't even have a clue as to why their made in China panels were failing... there's a clue! MIC blink blink! After having spent over 22grand on two pairs of Quads, the reply I got from the Aus importer was something along the lines, "sorry about the speakers failing, just buy another one!" And so I did, I bought the CLX's! Will never look back at any other stats, ML's tech support and service has always been top notch. Just like their stats, they don't flinch one bit!
Like I said in my other posts, at this stage, panel failures on ML's don't bother me one bit. I know they're always around to help and if more tech work is required, there are other resources to access. So at this stage, I would just sit back, light that cigar, pour that scotch (single malt it is...) and enjoy those fine tunes!
(the good wife recommended Glen Levit Single Malt, so might as well)
Cheers, RJ
Doggonit, I shoulda bought a pair of Neoliths an hour ago when they were $20,000 less!
Subwoofers seem to have gone up the least overall of anything with a price increase. The cheaper stuff is mostly the same price as before.
The Focus C18 went up over 27%, which seems to be an excessively large increase to me for this particular speaker. Not sure why this would go up so much unless ML wants to limit the amount of orders and sell less expensive center speakers. I thought what I paid was well justified for how the speaker sounds, but the new price is a bit of a shock.
Subwoofers seem to have gone up the least overall of anything with a price increase. The cheaper stuff is mostly the same price as before.
The Focus C18 went up over 27%, which seems to be an excessively large increase to me for this particular speaker. Not sure why this would go up so much unless ML wants to limit the amount of orders and sell less expensive center speakers. I thought what I paid was well justified for how the speaker sounds, but the new price is a bit of a shock.
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