A Sincere From My Heart Question Regarding the Future of ML ESL

[jimbill]

Oh yeah, that Bacch software gizmo. I meant to respond to this but forgot about it, simply because it wasn't a game charger for me. Sorry, I didn't report on it earlier in that previous thread... can't even remember which one it was.

Anyway, I went to the demo for what it's worth (this was several months ago) and don't get me wrong, it was pretty darn good! Just as you described, it expands the soundstage depth, horizontal and vertical imaging, the scale seems to expand as well, and you're not stuck in the sweet spot. With what my guys gathered, (three of us attended the demo and we all own CLX's), this is a highly capable software system that enhances the room's negative qualities. Or should I say, fixes the rooms bad parameters to such an affect, once dialed in correctly, it actually does work. The only downside is the price. There are two versions I believe, one's a standard version and the other is an audiophile version, that's not very affordable. It's nearly 20grand in AUD. That's quite a bit of spend. If I was seriously considering any upgrades to my existing rig, I would put that money towards the Esoteric G01-X clock without any hesitation.

Now for the part why I didn't engage much with it and find it unnecessary is: in my particular system and room set-up, I already get full 3D holographic imaging, the soundstage depth is superb and I get an enveloping affect, more from the vinyl rig than the digital rig. I'm not locked in a vice grip, plus 99% of the time, I listen alone. The tiny 1% is when the wifey also sits in to listen to some of her favourite tunes by Tracy Chapman, Adel, Sam Smith or Sting. Even with the two of us, the enveloping affect remains. Early last year, I had the opportunity to engage with a few professional chaps who specialise in room treatments, Acoustics and open plan listening spaces. That project took several months to complete and I paid them for their work, it was well worth it, and didn't cost anything close to the price of Bacch.

Although I do see the benefits of installing such highend software to enhance the listening experience, and from what I auditioned and learned, I do think it's a marvellous product. I guess it's upto the user / buyer to justify whether it's worth for his particular set-up. All those factors need to be considered before spending this kind of money.

As far as I'm concerned, it's not a "must have" item in my particular system and set-up, as compared to a very highend power amp, for example those beautiful Dartzeel monoblocks, now that would be a game changer, for me at least.

Those who haven't demoed what this Bacch software is capable of and are wondering, I highly recommend that you do. There's plenty of snake oil out there and various gadgets that claim to bring out the Genie in a lamp... however, certainly not this one.
BTW the system it was demoed on: ESL11A's, PS Audio DACs, Vitus pre-power amps and other digital interface gear to allow for Bacch to run, plus of course a Mac pc running the tunes via streaming. I may have missed a few other items... anyway thought I'd mention it to those who may be interested.

Cheers, and enjoy those fine tunes!
RJ

There must be a big difference in cost US vs. Australia. The Intro here is $900 (just the computer program and you use tape measurements). The Audiophile is $5000 more ( Babyface Pro FS Interface and ear microphones). So, something like $7600 AUD? You get full credit for the Intro when you upgrade like I'm doing. Nowhere near the price of Dartzeel amps. But then again, import fees and such might make a big difference...

Maybe you were auditioning the SP modules? They start at about $20,000 USD. Way beyond my budget.

 

[ttocs]

The room, where and how the speakers are placed, and where the listener sits have the most impact on the response one hears.

THIS ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I agree 100% with JonFo! Moving speakers and seating affects the sound more than anything else!

When it comes to location and orientation, TRY EVERYTHING! It's FREE!

 

[Rascal]

It basically eliminates the room's effect. The reverberations are those of the recording. You're hearing what the microphones heard. Crosstalk and comb filtering are all but eliminated. The sound stage is no longer just between the speakers, but outside them. Some recordings have almost a 180 degree effect.

With the ear microphones, the sweet spot is much wider. If you sit in a chair to listen to your system, the program will run sweeps from your normal sitting position, then have you lean right and left as much as is comfortable. The head tracking camera will then follow your head, moving the sweet spot with you. If you sit on a sofa, you can actually widen the coverage to the ends of the sofa. You may lose some highs sitting at the ends of the sofa because you will be slightly off axis with the speakers. It is recommended that you aim your speakers directly at your ears for the best sound. You no longer need to toe them to activate the room.

Thanks for your explanation. I checked out the BACCH4mac website as well to better understand the technique.

I'd like to underscore the following as key to making this work:

"The head tracking camera will then follow your head, moving the sweet spot with you."

A careful ongoing real-time determination of head location and orientation is needed to control the beam steering. This, in turn implies that, with speakers, it only works (totally compensates for issues) for a single lone listener at any given time and who wears a head piece.

As an alternative, the speakers could be bypassed altogether and replaced with an excellent pair of headphones. Truly outstanding phones can be had for far less than the cost of a pair of ESLs or proper room treatments, By buying several headphones, more than one person can share the listening experience at the same time.

That doesn't mean one should give up on ESLs. I just maintain that there are off-axis issues that need to be taken into account under non-assisted circumstances. Or, said another way, planar speakers aren't the easiest to position for full benefit and satisfaction in most rooms.

My two cents.

 

[ttocs]

This, in turn implies that, with speakers, it only works (totally compensates for issues) for a single lone listener at any given time and who wears a head piece.

Wrong. No head piece is needed. The camera tracks the head.

I didn't wear anything for my demo. I just sat in the chair and moved my head all around, as far as I could lean forward, backward, and side to side, and the sound never changed, it always sounded great. But, not so for anyone else.

 

[Rascal]

Wrong. No head piece is needed. The camera tracks the head.

I didn't wear anything for my demo. I just sat in the chair and moved my head all around, as far as I could lean forward, backward, and side to side, and the sound never changed, it always sounded great. But, not so for anyone else.

OK. No head piece. Head tracking camera. Got it.
Not so for anyone else. Check.

You didn't wear anything? Really?

 

[ttocs]

OK. No head piece. Head tracking camera. Got it.
Not so for anyone else. Check.

You didn't wear anything? Really?

I wore a shirt. I'm sketchy on the rest.

 

[Big Dog RJ]

There must be a big difference in cost US vs. Australia. The Intro here is $900 (just the computer program and you use tape measurements). The Audiophile is $5000 more ( Babyface Pro FS Interface and ear microphones). So, something like $7600 AUD? You get full credit for the Intro when you upgrade like I'm doing. Nowhere near the price of Dartzeel amps. But then again, import fees and such might make a big difference...

Maybe you were auditioning the SP modules? They start at about $20,000 USD. Way beyond my budget.

Yes correct. As I said I must have missed out on a few items... the pricing quoted by the dealer was all items/ gadgets included plus the Bacch software, so not just one of items.
Quite pricey but indeed does work quite well in tricky room set-ups.
Good stuff though.
Cheers, RJ

 

[christopherf]

Yes, the CLSIIz's were fantastic stats, I drove them supremely well with a single CJ Premier 11A. Just 70w/ch of tube finesse, partnered with a CJ PV12, it was my blissful bliss after hours, leading into the wee hours of the morning. However, one thing I will point out is that the CLSIIz's were limited in certain areas. Extended dynamics, extended transient control and LF detail was a challenge.

Comparing the CLSIIz's to the CLX's, the CLX's are full range stats in a totally different league. There's no comparison at this level and the CLX's offer a whole lot more when it comes to dynamic swings, limitless transients and superb LF detail. It's the very low notes, from about 30- 28Hz and below that the CLX's can benefit from a high quality sub. When I refer to high quality, I'm talking about speed, agility and supreme start-stop acceleration. That's why I prefer the BF210 or the BF212, they are the perfect match for CLX's.

At the time when I had the CLSIIz's, I really enjoyed the music, on all accounts, the presentation and imaging were superb! Whenever I wanted to switch over to a larger presentation with far greater scale and realism, I had the option of changing over to the Apogee Diva's. Driven by CJ's top of the line at the time, the Premier 8A (275w all tube monoblocks), and partnered with CJ's ART preamp, it was a fine combination that I enjoyed until the Diva's required a full refurb. Of course by then, it lasted well over 15yrs, I sold off the entire rig and migrated to Aus. The rest is history!

At the time of owing some of the best ribbon panel types and stats; Apogee Diva, Maggie MG20, Infinity IRS 1B, Quad ESL 63, and ML CLSIIz, my favourite of all time were the CLSIIz's. Even though they were limited in LF heft and slam, they did everything else right. It was just pure pleasure to listen to on CJ tube gear.

Back then ML didn't have the CLX nor was the CLX even considered as a new project. It was not until so many years that a brand new full range stat was being launched, and won speaker of the year 3yrs in a row. All 11 judges were unanimous in their decision that this was the best stat by far!
So owning the CLX's now and driving them with all tube CJ gear, brings back wonderful memories of those glory days.

Looking back at it and going full circle back to stats, I must say there will never be another CLSIIz, it's one of a kind stat!

So cheers to the CLSIIz! A true classic in every sense of the word, electrostat.
Woof! RJ

Even though I set it up to receive all replies on this thread I did not get this so I am glad I checked in! You have been one lucky person to have owned the CLSIIZ and CJ I remember going to audition CJ and they had a golden sound which I loved; HP used to joke the casing of the gear was a preview of the sound Audio Research in silver cold from MN; CJ casing was gold so we could expect a golden glow; he wasn't too off. Thank you for confirming that my memory of them was not wrong; they say you never forget your first love. What do you imagine they will bring to market as updates since it has been 7 years since the 13A , 15 etc. Any chance they will drop the powered woofers and offer a full panel again?

 

[Brad225]

Agreed, time for a refresh; apropos Audio Research going into receivership I believe this IS the reason; the Cliff Notes version? Greed

Audio Autopsy Reference 750 Flagship

Do you own them or have you ever heard them extensively. That is a pretty broad statement.

 

[Brad225]

Thats a good question that I've always wondered. I think it might be more fair to compare the CLS IIZ with a good sub to the CLX with no sub. After all, the CLX is supposed to be full range and many purists claim it doesn't need one.

I owned CLS IIz and ran them with 4 depth i subs. No comparison to CLX with or without subs. They might go a bit lower than CLX without subs but the speakers themselves are no comparison in sound.
Just my experience.

 

[Big Dog RJ]

Spot on Brad225!
Most owners whom I knew at the time who had CLSIIz's, went into either Apogee or Maggie territory as part of moving on... since ML didn't offer anything until the CLX's arrived, which was many years later. I know a few owners who also went the horn route, with Avant Garde Horns or Acapella Horns.
Then when the CLX's were finally launched, all these chaps switched over to CLX's, it was like a mad rush. Partly due to the success of the CLSIIz's, and how far ML improved full range stats. The CLX's are a marvel! There's no denying that.

However, for those who missed out since they were discontinued might as well just enjoy the CLSIIz's for what they're worth.

I'm really not sure in what direction ML will proceed with in terms of hybrid stats. Since the Masterpiece line replaced the Reserve line of hybrids, to surpass the Masterpiece line, it has to be a major improvement otherwise it's going sideways. The Masterpiece line was a remarkable achievement, both in terms of cabinet structure and panel matching. The Masterpiece series uses the Blade stat technology, which is even thinner than the Reserve series X-stat panels. The Blade tech uses special carbon alloys and is more rigid than any of their previous hybrids. So in order to surpass this performance overall and at what price... is the question.

Attn: JB
Is the audiophile market or imerging new / young audiophile customer looking for such high priced hybrids or are they looking at full range stats? Not sure.
We've been debating about this very topic at length down unda, during hifi shows and in Coffee shops... but none of us have a viable answer. As far as I know, if ML for some reason decides to phase out their stat line altogether and stick with dynamic hybrids, like the EM series, then so be it.

In which case, there are other alternatives. Not Sound Lab! for those huge panels you need a damn football field. I'm referring to Clarisys or Alsyvox or even Apogee refurbs, which are gaining good traction. The pricing from the current ML Masterpiece line to the entry-level Clarisys ribbons is a massive gap. The Clarisys panels are closer to 100grand, whereas the Alsyvox are over 100grand (this is in $AUD). The ML Masterpiece line ends at 50grand and about 160grand for the Neoliths. So our predictions were such that if ML were to introduce a new hybrid stat line, and models are superior to the Masterpiece series and the CLX's, that pricing is going to be somewhere upper regions of 80 to 100grand... so just under the pricing of both Clarisys and Alsyvox.

Then of course, there's the more affordable ribbon panels called Diptyque, made in France. I've auditioned them but not their top of the line, however they're quite nice, and don't cost a fortune either. More closer towards Maggie pricing. OTOH none of these are electrostats! They're all ribbons... so why even speculate when ML hasn't even decided on anything in the near future. Or maybe ...
We'll have to wait and see. Until then, enjoy those fine tunes!
Woof! RJ

 

[Robert D]

I owned CLS IIz and ran them with 4 depth i subs. No comparison to CLX with or without subs. They might go a bit lower than CLX without subs but the speakers themselves are no comparison in sound.
Just my experience.

That's a pretty definitive answer! I only heard the CLX at my local store, and never heard the CLS. The CLX I heard didn't impress me at all. There was zero low end, my Prodigies sounded better. It must have been something with their setup. Room acoustics or some other factor. I was thinking about getting a pair but then heard them. I wish I could have heard a proper setup. You'd think that an audiophile store would have had them set up correctly.

 

[Russr]

At risk of taking the convo in a slightly different direction. as a lifelong-wannabe-technogeeky-type, I think we have to cast a wider net when trying to skry into the future of audiophile (or just high-end hifi) products.

To give some background/context:
when I first encountered supermarket checkout systems with laser/mirror-driven bar code readers, it helped fuel an essay I wrote entitled "transport & communication in the 21st (gulp... showing my age, eh!) century. I figured of lasters & oscillating morrors could work THAT quickly (back in the early 80's), surely it would just be a question of time before some "interferometery-based" deployment of lasers & puffs of O2 and H2 could result in audio-frequency "explosions" that could actually span the entire soundstage (wherever that might be)... there were also bits in that essay about "free communications, the inability to have "Top Secret" projects, and yes, doffing my hat to James A. Michener, the formation of a planetary government that actually did something... like get our species out to SPACE". Well... no fear of THAT happening in our generation (thanks, collective bunch of yahoos in Congress), but the point is that any area of tech development affects a much broader set of products, lifestyles, etc.

So, in the context of this discussion some of the following:
Digital components (CPUs, GPUs, Memory, DACs, etc.) are all prforming at much higher speeds than was the case last year... and the year before that, and....
Advancements in 3D-modelling/scanning/printing now allow for real-time analysis of complex 3D objects (and environments)
"Digital Active" speaker systems have existed for a long time... what I've lookd at most recently (purely for interest sake, no gear budget currently!) is Gayle Sanders' "EIKON Audio"... but their website seems to have gone dark. It seems the core of their system is basically an analytics box, sending digital signals out AT THE DRIVER level. Each driver has its own amp. (BTW - "Digital Active (DACTive) was a term a buddy & I coined in 1984/5 when we were trying to analyze the encoding on CDs! Shoulda Copyrighted it and patented the idea!).
Add to the mix ALL kinds of AI models... voice recognition, sentiment analysis, vocal and facial spoofing, real-time analytics on eveything (room characteristics/signle-or-multiple listener body placement...

And yes, it COULD al boil down to a nifty little processing box and some really nice (implantable?) ear-pieces..

BUT, in the meantime, I would like to think that ML will continue to evolve.... we've already seen the major change introduced after the acquisition by the Paradigm/Anthem stable (ARC (Anthem Room Correction) has been a feature of Anthem Pre/Pros for a couple of decades now, and will hopefully continue to evolve and leverage even more our of the ML range of products).

Will ESLs "survive"... possibly. I mean, when you think about it, it IS a bit of a PIA to have these static-charged membranes hanging about, needing vacuuming and being the occasional shower-mate.. but isn't that what makes it all, well, our little corner of audio heaven?!

OK, enough rambling... I hereby solemnly swear I am NOT, and have not, imbibed ANY alcohol or other mind-altering substances in the writing (some would say "puking up on screen") of this diatribe, but it was a fun journey through a combination of distant memories & contemporary stuff I'm trying make a living out of! Y'all have a great Memorial Day Weekend (not you, Big Dog, but then again, you might not be able to receive this message, as you're walking around upside-down and the bitstream might be inverted dunnunda!

 

[JonFo]

It seems the core of their system is basically an analytics box, sending digital signals out AT THE DRIVER level.

An Australian company provides solutions that do exactly that, see: Choose a DEQX - DEQX

As discussed here last spring, it was about to launch: Monolith3 Replacement Woofers but as of May, 2023, still no availability or pricing info.

This is a rarefied market, as it requires users with enough motivation and tech chops to know what it is and how to use, even if it is vastly simpler than the manual approach I take with Active XO. And once you have the tech chops, there are other options, usually at lower prices.

But I agree with you; soon, the entire process will be automated, way beyond what ARC, Dirac and Audyssey do.
To some extent (but still for techoGeeks), the Trinnov Altitude series supports doing active XO in the pre-amp. But it is NOT simple. Thus, it will be my next preamp

Will ESLs "survive"... possibly. I mean, when you think about it, it IS a bit of a PIA to have these static-charged membranes hanging about,

I'll repeat that I firmly believe ML could double the existing sales $'s of the Masterpiece if they only copied my Monoray concept, as that does what you suggest.

Add in a service aspect that, for a fee, would allow a customer to map the listening room using an app on phones equipped with Lidar (e.g iPhone 12 Pro onwards), then uploads that info. Then the Monoray speaker processor pushes its RC data to the cloud, and trained ML staff can provide suggested room positioning tweaks and suggest (and hey, even sell, new revenue stream) acoustic treatments that help the customer achieve their reproduction goals.

 

[Big Dog RJ]

They'll definitely be onto something, not sure exactly what though. In my opinion, they've done everything to near perfection with the latest hybrids, being the Masterpiece series. They perfected the full range stat and ended off with the CLX's, so no longer made.
They launched the Statements series 1, and then further refined that multi-tower multi-panel system, took it to great lengths and stopped that one as well, being the Evo-II's.

So now, all that's left is, another hybrid series with larger panels or another full size Evo-3 or another full range stat... not really sure.
The others are gaining recognition, Clarisys, Alsyvox, Diptyque and Apogee. Maggie's still hold the podium for best vfm by far... so looks like ML is the only one panel type speaker brand that may or may not release something within the next decade.

I guess they've covered all angles and are discussing this very thing as I'm typing this.
Wish them all the best! Cheers to ML!
RJ

 

[jimbill]

How about another reiteration of the CLX. Replace the wood frame with the new Air Frame. Run the panel down to the floor, which might allow the panel to be a bit narrower (or leave it as wide and maybe increase the frequency range).
The only problem for me with the CLX was it's width, which doesn't work in my room, and probably a lot of other's.

 

[Robert D]

An Australian company provides solutions that do exactly that, see: Choose a DEQX - DEQX

As discussed here last spring, it was about to launch: Monolith3 Replacement Woofers but as of May, 2023, still no availability or pricing info.

This is a rarefied market, as it requires users with enough motivation and tech chops to know what it is and how to use, even if it is vastly simpler than the manual approach I take with Active XO. And once you have the tech chops, there are other options, usually at lower prices.

But I agree with you; soon, the entire process will be automated, way beyond what ARC, Dirac and Audyssey do.
To some extent (but still for techoGeeks), the Trinnov Altitude series supports doing active XO in the pre-amp. But it is NOT simple. Thus, it will be my next preamp



I'll repeat that I firmly believe ML could double the existing sales $'s of the Masterpiece if they only copied my Monoray concept, as that does what you suggest.

Add in a service aspect that, for a fee, would allow a customer to map the listening room using an app on phones equipped with Lidar (e.g iPhone 12 Pro onwards), then uploads that info. Then the Monoray speaker processor pushes its RC data to the cloud, and trained ML staff can provide suggested room positioning tweaks and suggest (and hey, even sell, new revenue stream) acoustic treatments that help the customer achieve their reproduction goals.

Perhaps in the near future an audiophile company will create a program that uses AI to do the DSP work. Nvidia has been doing it for awhile now with their DLSS programs. It's amazing. Games that would run at 40 fps will run at 75 fps or so and have better looking graphics. Just think what that might do for sound. Perhaps what's been done with graphics can be done with music.

https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce/technologies/dlss/

 

[JonFo]

BTW- The 'What's next' thing has been discussed before, ya'll might enjoy reading through this one from '21 Successor to Masterpiece speakers

 

[JonFo]

Perhaps in the near future an audiophile company will create a program that uses AI to do the DSP work.

The DSP load for audio is actually pretty straightforward; the Trinnov Altitude32 manages to perform all the decoding, XO, EQ, RC, speaker remapping, etc., for 32 channels, using an Intel i7 from seven years ago (or more). It's totally software driven.

The real need is in-room analysis and modeling of the acoustic space. So complete speaker radiation models are needed, as are reflectivity maps of the room (captured using a mic array), then ray-tracing, fluid-dynamics type of calculations to predict in-room behaviors. Finally, generating placement, treatment, and Room Correction parameters that can be used.

As a famous SciFi series says: Space, the final frontier. To boldly go where no one has gone before.

 

[rpokuls]

BTW- The 'What's next' thing has been discussed before, ya'll might enjoy reading through this one from '21 Successor to Masterpiece speakers

LOL, I was the OP on that thread. I'd completely forgotten.