A new wrinkle on The Summit.

[DrJRapp]

I was vacuuming my Summits last night and noticed that the esl plastic on the right speaker has started to sag a bit and has developed a "wrinkle" in the lower right corner immediatly above the bar that separates the stator from the lf driver grill.. The sound has not been effected "yet". Has anyone experienced anything similar on any other ML esl? I wouldn't know where to start to search for that anamolie.

 

[lugano]

Jerry, could you take a picture of this and post it here ?

 

[twich54]

Jerry, I just inspected my Vantage's and everything seems A Ok. Keep us in the loop as to what you end up doing.

 

[Tj Bassi]

A while back there were a handful of Prodigys with the same wrinkle in the lower part of the panel. I had auditioned a pair up on Agon, and although the wrinkle seemed to have no audible effect on performance, it was visually noticible and the seller had secured a new set of panels from M/L.
Obviously the Summits are a different animal than the Prodigys but I figured I would mention it anyways...

Tj

 

[Joey_V]

I noticed wrinkles in a local audiophile buddy's Ascents...

I periodically check my Summits... today I'm doing an overall cleaning and will double check for wrinkles in the panel.

Let us know how you fare with ML cs, Jer!

Joey

 

[Pcar928fan]

A while back there were a handful of Prodigys with the same wrinkle in the lower part of the panel. I had auditioned a pair up on Agon, and although the wrinkle seemed to have no audible effect on performance, it was visually noticible and the seller had secured a new set of panels from M/L.
Obviously the Summits are a different animal than the Prodigys but I figured I would mention it anyways...

Tj

Yup, one of my Prodigy is like that... Was like that when I got it and has not changed. I talked to folks about it and all say the same thing...will not affect the sound being that small. You can see it pretty easily though, but it has not bothered me...

 

[nsgarch]

Summits vs. previous models

As opposed to all previous models, the new Summits' panels are fabricated using an automated computer-controlled tensioning system (as opposed to hand fabrication). This new system results in a more tightly and uniformly stretched membrane -- which is why the smaller Summit panels are as efficient as the larger Prodigy panels.

Bottom line: IMO this kind of flaw should not be happening with a new Summit. I would definitely call Jim Powers at ML and arrange for a replacement panel (or speaker, if the panel is not user replaceable.)

 

[Sambob2]

Related to the wrinkle

I was vacuuming my Summits last night and noticed that the esl plastic on the right speaker has started to sag a bit and has developed a "wrinkle" in the lower right corner immediatly above the barthat separates the stator from the lf driver grille.. The sound has not been effected "yet". Has anyone experienced anything similar on any other ML esl? I wouldn't know where to start to search for that anamolie.

Related to this wrinkle I offer this thought:

I had pondered the purchase of a demo pair of ReQuests from my local audio salon and asked if I could listen to them in my home before making the final decision. They appeared in pretty good shape in the demo room even after I looked them over. I did not notice until I got them home that when I played them at a higher level, they buzzed in one particular spot on the ESL panel. Annoyed with this buzz, I continued to analyze what could be causing this problem. It was the light of the day (morning light coming up through the east window of my listening room) that uncovered the problem. It was not a wrinkle in the clear membrane but a smooth uneven very shallow dent in the perforated panel...as though someone bumped into it with an elbow or it fell on something and dented the panel. Not noticeable at all by eye just looking straight into it or from an angle. Anyway, my point is this, whether it is the perforated panel or the wrinkle in the clear membrane, I would be very skeptical about this "defect" and consider doing what nsgarch suggests, give Jim Power a call and get it resolved. For the money they cost they should be top notch speakers. Let’s keep them that way with some feedback to the company in the event they are not aware of it yet. Could be a new manufacturing person who is not up to speed on the assembly process and it is making it through Quality Control check unnoticed.

I did not buy that pair of Demo ReQuests, but did go on to order a brand new pair.

Sam

 

[Tj Bassi]

Yup, one of my Prodigy is like that... Was like that when I got it and has not changed. I talked to folks about it and all say the same thing...will not affect the sound being that small. You can see it pretty easily though, but it has not bothered me...

Does the wrinkle pose a problem if you push the speaker hard? The pair I looked at had no issue at low volume but since the fellow was driving them with a relatively small integrated amp I had nothing but his word that they preformed fine with more power. My thought was that the wrinkled area might be compromised since its not under enough tension.

Tj

 

[Jeff Zaret]

Dr J,

I do not think it is a problem unless it continues.

I would definitely call Jim P at ML.

My guess is he will tell you take a hair dryer to it to "re-stretch" it. MY old CLS panels did that once and that is what he told me to do. You basically move slowly down the pnel from top to bottom. I would say about 15 to 30 seconds from top to bottom.

Good Luck and lets us know

Jeff

 

[DrJRapp]

I'm trying to get a decent photo, but this is the best I can do. The wrinkle is the ray of light eminating from the bottom corner and go up at about a 60 degree angle from the horizontal. There are 7 more parallel wrinkles above it that are fainter.

 

[Joey_V]

Get it fixed Jer...

 

[roberto]

I'm trying to get a decent photo, but this is the best I can do. The wrinkle is the ray of light eminating from the bottom corner and go up at about a 60 degree angle from the horizontal. There are 7 more parallel wrinkles above it that are fainter.

Perhaps you can fix it with your hair dryer. Don´t apply too much heat...the wrinkly will go away. I had a similar problem with my CLS IIz stat panels. Ask Jim Power ([email protected]) if it is better from the front or from the back for the application of the hot air. Hpe this might help...happy listening,
Roberto.

 

[lugano]

The wrinkle is the ray of light eminating from the bottom corner and go up at about a 60 degree angle from the horizontal. There are 7 more parallel wrinkles above it that are fainter.

Jer, did this problem develop over time, or was it there from the beginning and you suspect you did only notice it now ? Are there any heat sources near the loudspeaker ? What about humidity/dryness ? Or a sun ray hitting the loudspeaker all day long, while you're at work ? Who is cleaning the house ? Any domestic animals in house ? I still agree with other member's opinions ("get it warranty changed") but honestly you should exclude any interference coming from your particular setup.

 

[HsvToolFool]

...which is why the smaller Summit panels are as efficient as the larger Prodigy panels.

Has anyone actually measured the panels of a Summit
and Prodigy to determine which has more surface area?

Summit gives up a few inches of width, but the panel
height appears about the same. If so, the actual surface
area would be practically the same.

 

[Beat_Dominator]

My ~1990 Sequel panel (left speaker for me) has 2 "waves" of wrinkles in the top left of the ESL, seems to sound fine..... given its age

I agree with others here, Summitts are too new to have these I would think.

 

[sleepysurf]

Has anyone actually measured the panels of a Summit and Prodigy to determine which has more surface area?

Summit gives up a few inches of width, but the panel
height appears about the same. If so, the actual surface
area would be practically the same.

From ML's website, re the MicroPerf design...

"MartinLogan's MicroPerf design optimizes this tradeoff by reducing the size of the individual holes and using many more of them than in a traditional electrostatic panel. MicroPerf almost doubles effective diaphragm radiating area without compromising structural integrity. The resulting increase in output capability and efficiency allows a panel to be made much smaller without sacrificing performance..."

Now, returning to the topic at hand... I, too, would be concerned about panel degradation so soon, and am curious to hear what Jim Powers has to say.

 

[theWB]

This new system results in a more tightly and uniformly stretched membrane -- which is why the smaller Summit panels are as efficient as the larger Prodigy panels.

Actually thats only partly true.
The membrane is more uniformly stretched.
But the exposed surface area of the membrane is much greater than the
Prodigy's due to the new Micro Perf panels. Even though the Summit panels
are smaller, they have a larger playable surface area due to the
MicroPerf design.

Regarding the wrinkle, if allowable under warranty, I would get the panel replaced. It would bother me.

 

[Pcar928fan]

But the exposed surface area of the membrane is much greater than the
Prodigy's due to the new Micro Perf panels. Even though the Summit panels
are smaller, they have a larger playable surface area due to the
MicroPerf design.

I am surprised to hear that...the difference in panel size is EXTREME. I bet they are REALLY CLOSE in "playable area"...

 

[DrJRapp]

Jer, did this problem develop over time, or was it there from the beginning and you suspect you did only notice it now ? Are there any heat sources near the loudspeaker ? What about humidity/dryness ? Or a sun ray hitting the loudspeaker all day long, while you're at work ? Who is cleaning the house ? Any domestic animals in house ? I still agree with other member's opinions ("get it warranty changed") but honestly you should exclude any interference coming from your particular setup.

This has happened over time. When I first got the Summits, ML had to send a tech to replace the amps and I helped the tech remove the panels so I got a real good look at them...no wrinkles then.

Heat sources....nothing close enough to effect the panels...my Palladiums are 2 feet away on the other side, house is a/c 24/7/365 (this is South Florida after all) and the Summits are on the North wall so that the sunlight coming thru the windows behind them is indirect. No animals and the housekeeper has strict instructions to stay away from my equipment.

I spoke with Jeff at ML (it appears Jim Powers is out of town) and he said that this is "normal" as the speakers age. If so, I'm a bit concerned that this is happening at only one year old and don't get all that much use. I think I should wait till Jim Powers comes back into town and have a discussion with him.