Would this amp be an updgrade?

[Peter_Klim]

I currently have a Prima Luna Prologue One integrated amplifier powering my ReQuests. Would swapping it for Emotiva 2ch pre and a more powerful 2 channel amp (35 wpc vs 185 wpc) produce better SQ?


I don't play music loud, and I never came close to playing it as loud as it can get. So I don't need more power. But I always hear how MLs sound better with more powerful amps. I don't think I detected any difference between my Prima Luna and my old 1988 2ch 45 wpc Onkyo receiver (I never did an a/b compare test or tried to listen for a difference, but no difference ever jumped in my face either). And I bearly, and I mean just bearly heard a difference between an old 1999 Panasonic DVD player and a current $900 CDP, even when doing a back and forth switch (selector switch in the Prima). I just don't think I can hear that much, if any difference with amplifiers.

I'm not complaining about the sound. I've only ever listend to 1 other system that sounded better (another ML system, and I know know my system is far from being the best out there) I'm just wondering if it will sound better going to the Emotiva.


Prima Luna

Emotiva Preamp

2 ch amp

 

[User211]

My experience would suggest that 35 Watts is nowhere near enough for the Requests. The Emotiva should sound substantially different because of the extra power and difference in technology. I have seen postings praising the Emotivas.

If you'd like even less outlay, try a Behringer A500. It will give you a flavour of a powerful solid stater for very little money. I'd be amazed if you don't hear a difference between the Behringer and the 'Luna. Whether that difference means much to you, only you can decide.

I actually own the Behringer. Not the world's best - but it is incredible for the money. All those with $10,000 plus amps should buy one and plug it in - if only for a reality check.

 

[Joey_V]

Not enough power. You will strain the amp.

 

[robertawillisjr]

It is always the quality of the amp that should be considered first. So which amp delivers the best sound should be your first concern. If you are happy with the Prima Luna excepting power, save your money. If you replace it, focus on the sound first not merely power.

 

[Peter_Klim]

My experience would suggest that 35 Watts is nowhere near enough for the Requests. The Emotiva should sound substantially different because of the extra power and difference in technology. I have seen postings praising the Emotivas.

If you'd like even less outlay, try a Behringer A500. It will give you a flavour of a powerful solid stater for very little money. I'd be amazed if you don't hear a difference between the Behringer and the 'Luna. Whether that difference means much to you, only you can decide.

I actually own the Behringer. Not the world's best - but it is incredible for the money. All those with $10,000 plus amps should buy one and plug it in - if only for a reality check.

Thanks. I looked up the amp. Hard to believe so much power for so little money! I'm just a bit worried about their quality. I have one fo their mixers and it start acting up after just a couple of years. Like you said, not the best, but it did sound pretty decent when it worked.

 

[Peter_Klim]

Not enough power. You will strain the amp.

Which amp is not enough power (that I "will" strain)?

I already own the Prima and I've never pushed the Prima to where it sounds like it may have strained and I've never had the desire to push it. From my listening position (~9 feet way) I measured A weighting at my normal listening distance from the ReQuests to average 60 dBs and when I am "pusing" it, it's only about 70 dBs. The volume knob at 70dBs is only at around the 9:30 position (yes, I know that doesn't indicate how much power is actually being used, but I doubt any amp at that position is anywhere's near its max wattage output).

So, I'm not looking to play the speakers louder, I'm just wondering how much better sound can I or would I get, by going to a more powerful amp like the Emotiva, if I don't push the ReQuests any louder than I already do (which isn't loud at all).

 

[Peter_Klim]

It is always the quality of the amp that should be considered first. So which amp delivers the best sound should be your first concern. If you are happy with the Prima Luna excepting power, save your money. If you replace it, focus on the sound first not merely power.

Right, I am defintely looking for better sound quality, not loudness.

The Prima does sound good to me, and I am happy with it. But think of me as a Bose lover that doesn't know any better because he never tried anything better

I know with car stereos, the built in amp in head units just do not have the power nor quality to drive component speakers and adding an outboard amp makes a major difference in sound quality, even in background listening levels. The low power Prima amp is, according to many reviews, a pretty good little amp. But it is lower power, so I am not sure if I can get better sound with the more powerful Emotiva when played at just above background listening levels.

I just hear quite often about people saying swapping from a 150 wpc amp to a 300 wpc amps will make our power hungry, low impenance ML sound so much better. Really, even when only using a couple of wpc?

 

[theWB]

Pete,
Give it a try, you got nothing to lose.
Emotiva offers a 30 day in home trial, if your not satisfied send it back, all you'll be out is the shipping charges.

 

[robertawillisjr]

Pete,
Give it a try, you got nothing to lose.
Emotiva offers a 30 day in home trial, if your not satisfied send it back, all you'll be out is the shipping charges.

Listening at home is always the best option (INMHO).

 

[User211]

Pete, the only way to learn is to try another option. Emotiva's deal sounds good.

FWIW, the Behringer looks and feels well made, and when I shoved it into the hands of another audiophile and asked him to guess retail he said £600-700. It costs £150 here.

Certified good by most who have heard it. I did find it hard to listen to with MLs for extended periods if I am honest about it, though. But for the money? Killer.

 

[Peter_Klim]

Thanks guys. You are correct, I need to actually use it in my system, in my home. That would be the only way to see if I myself will be happy with the possible improvement.

I have another ML system (Sequel II, Stage, Fresco i) in another room that is used as a HT. It uses an Onkyo HT receiver and there it does get loud (still not as loud as I am sure most people play theirs) and I've toyed with the idea of getting a 3 ch Emotiva amp for the 3 up front. So there I would think there would be a noticable difference. I could get the 3 CH amp and see how it works for my 2ch system. If it improves the sound, then I would get another Emotiva, but this time the 2ch.

The preamp I would probably get even if I don't get a new amp for the 2ch system....IF (and this is where I need help from you guys again) I could use the Emotiva preamp with my Prima Luna integrated amp. This would give me remote control since the Prima doesn't have the functionality. Would that be possible? I would just have the volume control on the Prima turned all the way up, correct? Would connecting the preamp and the int amp alter the sound in a negative way?

 

[Peter_Klim]

Pete, the only way to learn is to try another option. Emotiva's deal sounds good.

FWIW, the Behringer looks and feels well made, and when I shoved it into the hands of another audiophile and asked him to guess retail he said £600-700. It costs £150 here.

Certified good by most who have heard it. I did find it hard to listen to with MLs for extended periods if I am honest about it, though. But for the money? Killer.

Hey, I checked out your awesome system! Is the Behringer in another system now?

 

[eknuds01]

One thing I just noticed is that you are going from an integrated tube amp to a SS device to power your speakers.

That right there is a pretty substantial difference. I would think the vocals and the sound of the instruments will be different between these two amplifier technologies.

Yes, having lots of power is nice. But I would consider the context - if you listen to demanding material at high sound levels, then high power (and current) is needed. Maybe your Prima Luna is just fine because it delivers enough current when you need it (for those low impedance dips).

I jumped from a 75 wpc receiver to a 250 wpc sunfire. I would say the sunfire can drive my aerius i speakers to high levels with relative ease, but, like you, I don't blast the speakers. What I did notice was better bass and better imaging with this solid state amp. What is a HUGE difference? Eh...depends, but maybe not as big as I was hoping for. So for me, nearly increasing the wattage three-fold did not result in three times better sound.

Erik

 

[User211]

Hey, I checked out your awesome system! Is the Behringer in another system now?

For an ex-ML owner, I seem to be posting too much.

It's driving some Mark & Daniel Sapphire's. But it sees the Duettas evey now and then - especially to show any doubters what it is capable of.

It might go soon, as I fancy a retro Luxman M-02 or M-05 (80s), or maybe even an M4000/6000 (70s - Tim De Paravicini design). Not heard any of those, but it's fun to play.

 

[2beornot2bop]

Prima Luna with Logans

Pete, I'd be surprised if you find anyone here that drives a Request or any other Martin Logan with a 40wpc integrated like your Prologue 1.

A few months back I couldn't resist sampling a PrimaLuna Prologue 5 amp with a pair of Vista's. I acquired it used off AG, and was curious about these Chinese amps. To my surprise the Prologue 5 drove the Vista's with ease, and it's only rated 35wpc. This troubled me, for how could 35 watts of tube power push a 'stat that's commonly known to dip below 2ohms? I called PL's USA distributor, Kevin Deal of Upscale, to inquire about this anomaly and one his staff informed me that even though the Prologue 5 is only rated 35wpc it's got a solid state transformer stage which pushes it into the realm of performing like a 140wpc solid state amplifier. That made sense to me, for I was hearing all the volume I needed to hear in the area of 80dB from the Vistas without the slightest hint of strain. Like you, I'm always in the pursuit of quality of sound, rather than volume. Frankly, I never listen over 75dB anyway.

Now, having said that, something to think about concerning the Emotiva. I don't know the product having never sampled one myself. But my experience with a countless number of amplifier's, both tube and solid state, has taught me that 'all wattage is NOT created equal'. Therefore 200 watts from the Emotiva's design could sound very anemic on the Requests, whereas another amp such as a BAT VK200 rated 200wpc 4ohms would drive the Requests aplenty, and produce the sonic goods. Reason being all wattage is NOT created equal. Design trumps wattage, but only always.

I've owned first generation Requests, SL3's, Quest Z's, CLS's which I own now, and I discovered the best performance I experienced was by biamping all first generation ML's, aside from the CLS's.

As your ML manual even suggests, assigning one amp the task of delivering low, mid, and hi frequencies will stress most any amp, which our ears will hear as distortion. By assigning one amp to handle the woofers, the other the panels, you'll be surprised by the results. Logically, it makes good sense to biamp any Logan, IMHO. Even when I owned BAT's flagship VK1000 mono's, which had power and current aplenty for most any speaker, I still biamped my Monolith III's.

Besides, with any electorstat, and I'm surprised someone hasn't already mentioned this, owning electostats, you're after HIGH CURRENT...*crew the wattage rating game.

If you desire to do a cheap upgrade just snag a 2 channel Sunfire used, they're available everywhere, assign it to pull woofer duty on the Requests, which anyone who knows that speaker will tell you those woofers rob any amp of much of its power. Just my .02

 

[Peter_Klim]

The option to tube up top and SS for lows is somehting i completed overlooked as an option! Thanks for the tip!!

So would it work with the Prima Luna, if I turned the volume all the way up on the PL, and then connected my source to the Emotiva, and the emotiva to an input on the PL? Would it color the sound?

If it would work, I would get the preamp now and then later get the amp for the woofer.

 

[2beornot2bop]

I'll reserve further comment, for as I indicated I don't know the Emotiva. Beyond that I see no need to spend more than $800 for a used amp, whether it be a used Sunfire, or something like an Aragon 8008, which is a high current amp, to accomplish the task at hand. If the Emotiva costs more than that, what's the point of throwing extra money at an experiment when one can determine for a slight investment of $800 or less if biamping is to their liking?

Tube up top, solid state on the bottom has been the mantra for Logan's for as long as I've owned them, over 15 years now. Using the PL in the mix you've got an imbalance of gain issues to overcome, but even that's still workable. I've never used integrated's to biamp in the audio spectrum. It's far easier to plug a y adapter off the back of a pre and heading out to both amps in that configuration. Perhaps someone with integrated expertise can offer you further suggestions. Read the section of your ML manual that addresses biamping, it's a very well written section of the manual. Good stuff!

 

[Steelhead]

Peter,

I will chime in as I used to run my reQuests with a cj premier 11a (70 wpc) and ended up bi-amping with a Hafler 500 on the bass section and the 11a on top.

I listen to rock and like volume and my concern was the dynamic compression at higher listening levels and bass impact.

However, I do listen to lower volume music, acoustic, jazz and still felt the amp on bottom made a significant improvement even at lower levels. In my situation it was a "THERE'S THE BASS" response. This was evident at lower levels and made the reQuests much more enjoyable.

I ended up with Summits as I like to power up the dial on occasion. I still have the reQuests and they were great speakers.

Good luck and I would encourage to try bi-amping. I think you will notice an improvement in the bass even at low to moderate listening levels.

Have Fun!

 

[mapmustang]

If you have a little more money, the Emotiva UPA-1 monoblocks are supposed to be a much better amp than the 2-ch UPA-2, and they have XLR connections. Now would be the time to try them since they are on sale with free shipping. I have the Emotiva XPA-5 and it matched up with a Sunfire amp just fine.

 

[vertigo]

Amps

After doing weeks of amp research, I learned that for the most part amps typically sound different when they distort the signal.

Please understand that home thater type amps are designed NOT to distort the signal. In a perfect world all amps given a specific watt rating and without being over driven would sound exactly the same. Companies spend a lot of R&D money to try to get the best accuracy they can.

So an underpowered tube amp such as the one you're talking about will distort much sooner than let's say the Emotiva XPA 3 but tubes distort in a smooth curve as oppose to clipping like a solid state amp. The clipping can cause damage to the drivers. A lot of times when people talk about "color" they're really talking about just that, smoothed out distortion. Techinically speaking "color" or anything else you want to call it being added to the signal is NOT a desirable trait as far as "clean signal" is concerned.

Having said that, when you're powering the speakers with an amp that's functioning within its rating and don't overwork it causing it to distort you should hear accurate signal. In this situation you're going to hear much better accuracy at higher volumes from the Emotiva XPA 3 vs the 35 watt rated tube amp.