Bernard
Well-known member
Yup, it's called infant mortality.
Why do ML panels die?
- Thread starter westoz
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tonepub
Senior Member
Couldn't agree with you more on your comments on the sound and I also had 1+1's!
Do any of you think that panels built in the last 10 years have a longer life expectancy than older panels did?
Horchem1972
Well-known member
Here is a question: Roger was Innersound - and it seems he allowed a larger company to come in to help with cash flow/marketing/distribution etc... What has been learned from that experience that will make SandersSoundSystems a better company - so that Horchem and Len's new Sanders Sound System 10b'swill be safe in the future and that this new company will not face the same fate as Innersound?
These are the types of answers that bring down this forum.I simply asked why Sanders can provide lifetime warranties on panels and ML cannot.Now the herd has started bashing anyone that even proposes a question against their beloved Logans.If Timm would bother to read my full posts I never stated that I was purchasing some 10B's and that I did own ML Monolith's.You guys question why Angela provides info on this site and questioned her integrity.I have never read her saying anything bad about ML on this site.But it is okay for Tonepub who is sponsored by ML to bash other competitve companies at the drop of the hat.Isn't that the pot calling the kettle black.If you do not wish for other companies to post than why should someone sponsored by ML be able to post against them?
Gordon, sorry, but I disagree.
While this is a ML-oriented forum, it is not 'owned' by ML, it is here because Tom and the rest of us are fans of their products and love good audio in general. More than half the topics in this place have tangential relevance to ML anyway, and discussion of other electrostats is a normal, recurring topic.
I personally find it very gratifying to read and interact with the folks from Sanders Sound Systems. Roger has been an influential figure in the evolution of electrostatic technology design and understanding over the years.
Many here use his awesome amps on their ML's.
If they can explain why their designs and company philosophy allow them to provide such a long warranty on panels, I sure welcome the news, as I'd like to know what aspect of the design helps improve panel life-span.
And to date, the sharing of information has always been courteous and not slamming ML, jsut explaining the differences and advantages of their solution as they see it.
It's up to us to decide which approach we believe will serve us as consumers best in the long term.
Personally, I plan to buy as many Sanders amps as I can afford in the near future because I believe in the quality of the product and what it can do in my ML-based system. I also have seen enough evidence that SSS will give me a level of service that few other companies would.
For how long? Well, none of us control the lifespans of people or organizations (ask the Snell owners that) we deal with. But I'm willing to bet my money that Roger and Angela will continue to do what they've reliably demonstrated over the past 15 years: loyalty to their customer.
Bottom line, I welcome their participation in this forum and the sharing of their knowledge.
Horchem1972
Well-known member
That is fine but you buy new panels knowing that they are going to fail.Would you not like for ML to sell you panels with lifetime warranties? This is not just a novelty or gimmick.It is putting your trust in your product to offer such warranties.If they would go out of business by doing this,than why is a company such as Bryston still in business.They offered 20 year warranties.
you miss the point horchem -- so let me explain... First of all - I didn't answer anything -- It was a question.... My statement was a joke - about your and Len's (lets be fair to Len here) 10bs -- see the big smiley face?? Others have answered your question regarding lifetime warranties... myself and others - Read the posts... I think the question you quote aboive that I asked is very pertinent to ANYONE interested in a Sanders Sound product and is worried about warrantys etc.. If you take a look at the note I posted from Roger himself - and read it well - you will see that Roger said he and Raj made the decision to allow Gary Leeds to purchase the company because they were cash strapped...Yet, Angela says he was never in charge....You don't think that might be an important question?
Re: you never saying anything bad about ML -- You asked a question related to warranty -- the question was answered many times by many posters - Yet you still have the same question....'Why can't ML offer......' You are inferring that ML quality is bad - hence they can NOT offer a lifetime warranty - and try to make a comparison to Sanders' company.
Re: Tonepub -- He is a writer - and writes about MANY products. The only thing he has to sell is integrity - and if a writer loses that - he is screwed. He has made valid points as well - and I think if you were REALLY going to pony up 13K for a speaker - you would understand that and think about it.
Horchem1972
Well-known member
How is wondering how they cannot offer the same warranty calling them a bad company.You need to read what is wriitten and not put your own spin on it.Why is it that everytime somebody has a question about ML and their practices,said few are here to bash whoever dares to say or think such a thing.It was stated that other manufacturers should not have the right to state their opinions.But you now admit that a reviewer sponsored by ML has the right to say whatever he wants about another speaker or manufacturer.I think you are talking out of both sides of your mouth.
First of all - I didn't bash you - Lets get that straight right now... I made a comical remark about you purchasing 10bs - and it was noted by the big smiley face.... You took that the wrong way. And now I'm a meany...
Horchem, I listen to my speakers - like them - and find them very high quality - which is why I purchased them. I thought a 5 year warranty was fine when I did - and still do. I don't know what your situation is with your ML's. However, I have never heard you say you dislike them - or that they are poor quality - or that your panels are failing. Tweeters fail / woofers fail / crossovers fail / internal amps fail -- why wouldn't a panel fail? And what is the definition of 'fail'? That they don't sound as good 25 years down the road as they did when they were brand new? Is that failing?
My focus on this forum is on sound quality - and if I have issues with my speakers or other electronics see if I can get a helping hand. Lets not pretend that this forum is a mouthpiece to ML management. It isn't. So, maybe people should try to stop treating it that way.
Horchem1972
Well-known member
I agree that some people use this forum as a mouthpiece.I fully understand that some people will justify their choice of ML to no end.These same said people will try to discredit anyone that even questions anything about ML policy.I personally do not care what one prefers to listen to.I do have a problem when members state that another manufacturer has no right to display their opinions.Only Tom has the say,since it is he that made this forum possible.But you are the one that says it is okay for Tonepub to post his opinions because he is a reviewer.Even though said reviewer is heavily sponsored by ML.You using the "meany" phrase is my whole point of said members actions and third grade mentality.Remarks like that show how much respect you have for certain people and their opinions.Admit it or not there is a click here with some people who will defend each other to no end.I respect your side,even though I do not agree with it.
It is not, and the question is a valid one. More importantly, the question is: why has ML decided to change their long history of supporting every model indefinitely?
Because this is a forum dedicated to ML speakers. So it is not really surprising that there are plenty of fanboys here to ridicule anyone who might dare question ML the company or criticize them in any way.
Everyone's entitled to their opinion, so I wouldn't take these statements too seriously. But I would correct you on this: Tonepub is not "sponsored by ML" at least not on this forum. Quite the opposite, he is a sponsor of this forum, paying Tom for advertising banners. Personally, I have no problem with him posting his opinions on this forum and appreciate his insight even though I don't always agree with him.
I personally don't see any problem with Angela posting on this forum either, anymore than I see a problem with Ethan Winer or other manufacturers deciding to post. More information from industry insiders is always beneficial to the layman, in my opinion. And don't forget that Roger Sanders doesn't just manufacture speakers that compete with ML, he also manufactures amps and preamps that match beautifully with ML speakers. His amps, which I use in my system, are some of the better amps available for electrostatic speakers, are incredibly neutral, and produce boatloads of current. Would people be complaining if Bob Carver (or his wife) came on and started posting his thoughts on how much better ribbon drivers are than electrostats? Ok, silly example but hopefully you get my point.
As for the whole warranty issue, here is my take. I agree with Jeff that a "lifetime warranty" is a bit of a joke in practice especially from a small company. Twenty or thirty years down the road, how many companies are really going to be around to deliver on that kind of promise? But what Jeff and others are losing sight of is the corporate mindset of customer service above all else, which Sanders exhibits by his actions. He is under no obligation to continue to service Innersound products, yet he does. No, he may not be around forever to service his products. But while he is around, you can believe that he will do whatever he has to do to satisfy his former customers. This has been proven time and again by his actions, which speak a lot louder than words. That is rare in today's world and it is that blindsided attitude toward servicing his customers that has given Roger an incredible reputation in the industry.
MartinLogan used to have that kind of reputation for customer service. It is clear, to me at least, that this is changing with new management. The firing/laying off of Jim Power, deceptive marketing campaigns, and decision to change the policy of supporting certain older models are all pretty clear indications that current management is more concerned with the bottom line profit numbers than with continuing the stellar customer support ML has been known for.
Ultimately, in my mind, it isn't about whether you know 100% that your speaker will be supported in twenty years. No one has that level of certainty about any company. But it is all about the corporate mindset: How does the company vying for your dollars look at you as a customer. Do they look at you as an expendable commodity, to be pretty well ignored after the sale and short warranty period? Or do they look at you as a valuable long-term partner in the growth of the company and put policies in place to keep you happy and satisfied with your products for a long time? I think Roger is clearly on the latter half of that equation, and ML used to be, but they are now quickly moving toward the view of the customer as an expendable commodity.
For me, at this level of audio gear, there are lots of great choices of products. It is important for me personally to have pride in the company I give my money to, and not just a love of the product. When I buy CJ, or ARC, or Pass Labs, or Sanders, I have that kind of pride. At this point, I have pretty much lost that pride in ML as a company due to the decisions of new management over the last few years. Perhaps I will get it back in the future, but that is where I am at right now.
So ultimately, at least in my mind, corporate mentality is a very important component of the equation as to what speakers or other components to purchase. I want to buy from a company that makes great products, but that also treats their employees and customers with respect. I want to have pride in the company I purchase from, whether I am buying a high end car or a high end audio component.
As for ESL panel life, I think it is quite valid to ask the question: Why do ML speakers have a reputation for panel failure after a period of time, while Sanders speakers do not (at least not that I am aware of)? Why should we have to vacuum and shower ML panels to maintain them or restore them, when I have never heard about such things with other ESL manufacturers. Do Soundlabs need to be vacuumed every month or so to keep them in good working order? I don't know; I'm just curious. These are valid questions, and it is pretty silly and short-sighted of members of this forum to ridicule other members just for asking them.
As for Sanders speakers' sound, I personally thought the 10B sounded better than my Summits at RMAF, which is impressive given show conditions. They have even better imaging and soundstaging than the Summits. But, like GG, I don't appreciate the vice-grip sweet spot that results. I do think that the Sanders speaker offers a much better and technically superior crossover/woofer amp module than what is in the ML speakers. This makes for a very seamless blend between woofer and panel, something that has plagued ML speakers for many years. Haven't heard the Summit X though, so can't comment on the comparison there.
David Matz
Well-known member
Good posts and discussion above. Let's keep the censorship OUT!!! I think we all benefit from David Jensens and Angelas contributing to the forum. The more wildly different ideas the better for all of us enjoying the hobby, IMO. Angela, please keep posting!
As to why panels die, a lot of it is design. ML, Sanders, and Soundlab all have different panel designs. Each panel has compromises and tradeoffs in terms of the materials, insulation, mylar, etc.
As to lifetime warranties and marketing, I think the answer to that is common sense and well stated above. How many audio companies will survive past its founders and be as successful? Not many. One critical factor is the strength of the brand. If it a valuable brand, someone will want to buy it.
However, the more important factor are the processes / routines the company has created and instilled into its culture and DNA so it can survive once the founder is gone. If the company does survive, the innovation will stall/ stop or the new engineers will not likely be able to re-create the same sonic signature the original engineer/ founder had that put the company on the map. There will be exceptions, of course, but I think we just need accept that reality that most of these are 1 or 2 man garage operations. Fortunately, there will other options once the founders are gone.
As to how Sanders speakers sound, they are excellent. IMO, the speakers are MUCH better than the electronics (however, the amps are as good as you can find at their price point). If people are sitting and listening, the sweet spot doesn't matter that much. If you like to move around or listen with many others, you have to get the CLX, older Logans such as CLS/ Monolith, or the Soundlabs. The sound of the Sanders speakers is so close to Logans that I am willing to bet that most people will not be able to tell the difference between the 2 blind folded.
As to why panels die, a lot of it is design. ML, Sanders, and Soundlab all have different panel designs. Each panel has compromises and tradeoffs in terms of the materials, insulation, mylar, etc.
As to lifetime warranties and marketing, I think the answer to that is common sense and well stated above. How many audio companies will survive past its founders and be as successful? Not many. One critical factor is the strength of the brand. If it a valuable brand, someone will want to buy it.
However, the more important factor are the processes / routines the company has created and instilled into its culture and DNA so it can survive once the founder is gone. If the company does survive, the innovation will stall/ stop or the new engineers will not likely be able to re-create the same sonic signature the original engineer/ founder had that put the company on the map. There will be exceptions, of course, but I think we just need accept that reality that most of these are 1 or 2 man garage operations. Fortunately, there will other options once the founders are gone.
As to how Sanders speakers sound, they are excellent. IMO, the speakers are MUCH better than the electronics (however, the amps are as good as you can find at their price point). If people are sitting and listening, the sweet spot doesn't matter that much. If you like to move around or listen with many others, you have to get the CLX, older Logans such as CLS/ Monolith, or the Soundlabs. The sound of the Sanders speakers is so close to Logans that I am willing to bet that most people will not be able to tell the difference between the 2 blind folded.
Angela
Well-known member
hey, before I met Roger, I was very active on AudiogoN and AA, so I know how to handle myself in the forums, BUT I find that I am now hampered because I need to be on my best behavior
Yes, I was an audiophile BR (before Roger). That's how I met him. I had a pair of Isis and had just purchased an EAD processor (I had a 2 channel/HT combo). I was getting a AM talk show hate speak type of guy coming through my speakers all the bloody time. Since the EAD was the last piece of gear in the chain, I called them and they treated me like a girl and blew me off. So I called Innersound and Roger walked me through troubleshooting step by step. When he got to the question of "do you have any aluminum foil?" I thought I was in the midst of one of those old phone practical jokes (take the parts and put them in paper bag and wave them over your head... remember that?) anyway, I did and he told me to wrap them around the EAD provided XLR-RCA adapter and voila, the radio jerk was gone! SO.... even though EAD swore up and down that the adapter was shielded...well it wasn't! So Roger made me a pair of cables with XLR to RCA and I went on my happy way. Coming from a technical background, my whole career, I fell for this guy - yep I fell in love over troubleshooting
I was in the SF area and he was in GA, we decided to meet "in the middle" in CO and the rest, as they say, is history. After 7 years, we got married last year on 3/3/9 (we called it square root day and figured we could remember that!) peace,
ang
Bernard
Well-known member
Angela,hey, before I met Roger, I was very active on AudiogoN and AA, so I know how to handle myself in the forums, BUT I find that I am now hampered because I need to be on my best behavior
I read this somewhere:
"Well-behaved women rarely make history"
Well - lets cut to the chase with this topic --
Whose panels here have been replaced because of a failure -- and whose have not... I guess 'failure' would be defined as -started to sound 'bad'. Give age of panel you needed to replace/whether the speakers were in a humid environemnt / or whether you live in a smoking environment ... sorry- model as well would be good...
Odysseys -Mine have not. -- panels 4 years -- non-smoking - not humid.
- they sound as good as the day I got them.
My brothers (Ascents) have not. --panels 5 years - non-smoking - not humid.
- they sound as good as the day he got his.
Whose panels here have been replaced because of a failure -- and whose have not... I guess 'failure' would be defined as -started to sound 'bad'. Give age of panel you needed to replace/whether the speakers were in a humid environemnt / or whether you live in a smoking environment ... sorry- model as well would be good...
Odysseys -Mine have not. -- panels 4 years -- non-smoking - not humid.
- they sound as good as the day I got them.
My brothers (Ascents) have not. --panels 5 years - non-smoking - not humid.
- they sound as good as the day he got his.
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Hocky
Well-known member
FWIW, I had a set of Aerius with 14 year old panels, worked perfectly. And I had a set of Ascents with 8 year old panels, worked perfectly. I replaced the Ascent panels because I got a good deal and like the styling of the newer gen panel.
User211
Well-known member
Exactly what I think, Adam.
The point is not the warranty, but the fact that a technical hurdle is being claimed by Roger with regards to the effect of humidity and I think other environmental issues that cause ML panel degradation. And ML panels do fail. I've been through quite a few - always after the warranty has expired.
Whether this claim is substantiated by fact, I can't say. But I tend to believe what Roger is claiming is probably true, as he appears reputable enough.
I'd far rather the product simply worked rather than broke. Who wants the hassle of replacing panels in the first place?
Justin - what failed? I'm curious to see if there is anything that would be consistent. I believe you have ascents? and your slick blue apogees of course... How old were the panels/smoking etc.....
User211
Well-known member
I smoke, but into an extractor fan when at home, or out of a window.
Timm - I wish I knew. I just don't know, however. Aerius panels went and were replaced - with 2 sets of duff panels until the 3rd set I tried were OK. Much annoyance there. Also, the Ascent panels failed before their 7th birthday - about the same as the Aerius ones lasted.
All panels looked clean when they failed. Speakers kept very well, vacuumed etc. Humidity levels just normal UK levels, I guess. The first sign was always a drop in output of one channel, which worsens fairly quickly.
The reason I persisted is simply because I didn't like much else apart from MLs - at least at affordable prices, or much more accurately, what I was prepared to spend on loudspeakers.
Then I got the idea of restoring some Apogees
BTW: the ribbon drivers fail eventually too
