Which CLS is this?

[bigbanger]

Hi guys,

I've got another opportunity to buy a pair of CLSes and the seller has sent me some photos of the speakers. He claims they're CLS IIs and they panels appear to be, but there's something odd about the serial #s. Firstly, there are no serial #s on the panels and the serial #s on the electronics are simply 4-digit numbers, 4174 and 4175 - no 'CE' prefix, etc. Can anyone shed some light on this? I've attached a couple of photos...

 

[nsgarch]

Looks like original CLS electronics before the numbering codes. Also the "Controlled Line Source" was quickly dropped for "Curvilinear Line Source" (is the transformer mounted outside the black chassis?) The panels are the new version and look very nice as do the frames. What is the asking price?

 

[bigbanger]

Looks like original CLS electronics before the numbering codes. Also the "Controlled Line Source" was quickly dropped for "Curvilinear Line Source" (is the transformer mounted outside the black chassis?) The panels are the new version and look very nice as do the frames. What is the asking price?

Yeah, I did a double-take when I saw 'Controlled Line Source' since I've always known them as 'Curvilinear Line Source'. The owner says he's never replaced the panels, so I have to assume he's not the original owner (which I'll confirm with him). So can the electronics be replaced with newer ones since these are presumably VERY old? We haven't discussed price yet, the seller responded to a WTB ad I had posted. You're right, the panels/frames look excellent. The seller says the speakers are in like-new condition, which the pictures seem to confirm.

What do you think is a fair asking price for these?

 

[mosttoysrk]

BigBanger,
The electronics look like what I have which are CLS 1's. The panels look like they have been replaced though. Are there separate different serial #'s on the panels?
They will be on the back bottom of each panel if they have been replaced. My serials are 3880, 3881 for the electronics so you may have newer electronics than me. I would check with Jim Powers at ML. It is cost prohibitive to change electronics if those are the 1st generation electronics. You would be better off purchasing a IIz or whatever you want.
No problem with the sound from my CLS 1's though, I am very very happy with mine.

 

[tubevibb]

two Xfourmers or one!

I would like just a set of the panels, i have all the Xfourmer to set them up anway i wood like,any one have old set of panels an how$$.One Xfourmer pr interface well have a sound of it own, an maybe peff. Dose anyone no if the are setup in pushpull or the ML S.E. set up?

 

[tubevibb]

Here is the S.E. set up on the SL3

you can see one end of primary an secdairy are on the crossover neg. Not pushpull no centertap?
thanks

 

[tubevibb]

jim sent me this but it showes pushpull

You get less output with ML S.E. setup an thats good for panel sales i gess? Here is the Aerius i schematic,if you go to pushpull like it shows an you can on all ML you get 2-4db more output! My SL3 an Aerius i are now pushpull,thay were in the ML S.E. set up an i had two get new panels now that thay are pushpull the old panel sound better than the new!

 

[bigbanger]

BigBanger,
The electronics look like what I have which are CLS 1's. The panels look like they have been replaced though. Are there separate different serial #'s on the panels?
They will be on the back bottom of each panel if they have been replaced. My serials are 3880, 3881 for the electronics so you may have newer electronics than me. I would check with Jim Powers at ML. It is cost prohibitive to change electronics if those are the 1st generation electronics. You would be better off purchasing a IIz or whatever you want.
No problem with the sound from my CLS 1's though, I am very very happy with mine.

Thanks for the info, that's kind of what I suspected. So what would be a fair price for such a speaker and is it worth buying? Can the electronics be repaired if something goes wrong in the future? It seems like there are many people here with CLS 1 electronics. Are they prone to failure? How long can they be expected to last?

BTW, the seller says that he can't find serial #s on the panels at all. I originally told him to look at the top of the panel, so maybe they're on the bottom and he overlooked them.

 

[nsgarch]

The S/N should be on the upper left corner of the panel as you face it from the rear. It sounds like someone who had the speakers before the present owner replaced the panels with the CLS II type. That's perfectly OK although I understand that the original CLS panels (horizontal spars only) are also available. The electronics unit (transformer on the outside??) is not replaceable. In fact I don't think ML has any complete electronics units available -- but owners' units can be repaired.

 

[mosttoysrk]

Thanks for the info, that's kind of what I suspected. So what would be a fair price for such a speaker and is it worth buying? Can the electronics be repaired if something goes wrong in the future? It seems like there are many people here with CLS 1 electronics. Are they prone to failure? How long can they be expected to last?

I've have seen CLS 1's go from 995-1500. The 995.00 speakers were listed as needing new panels. I paid 2000.00 for mine with brand new panels and a warranty on the panels. ML does warranty the new panels! So for a used set with good working panels 1100-1600?

ML will still repair the electronics for the CLS 1. How long will they last? Who knows... I haven't heard too much about failure in the electronics. I always unplug mine when I am not listening even though they have the reduced voltage feature built into the electronics.

 

[kmanusa]

You are probably correct about the electronics being CLS 1 vintage. From my experience, you have CLS 1 panels because there is a visible space between the endpoints of the horizontal spars and vertical spars whereas on CLS 2 series panels, there is little or no space there. The proof however would be in the serial numbers-- a CLS 1 panel will have a serial number with a CS1 prefix whereas CLS 2 panels have a CS2 prefix. See elsewhere on this site for a posting on the Martin Logan serial number codes.

My replacement CLS 1 panels have a CS1 prefix and I received them in October of this year. When you order new panels, Jim Power will ask whether you have the CLS 1 or CLS 2 so he can send you the correct replacement panel for your electronics. In either case, the replacement panels benefit from newer Martin Logan materials and manufacturing processes. By the way, my CLS 1 panels look like the ones shown in your photo.

 

[bigbanger]

You are probably correct about the electronics being CLS 1 vintage. From my experience, you have CLS 1 panels because there is a visible space between the endpoints of the horizontal spars and vertical spars whereas on CLS 2 series panels, there is little or no space there.

Now I'm really confused, I thought that these panels looked like the CLS 2 panels. But it makes sense that they're CLS 1 panels, since the electronics seem to be CLS 1 vintage and the seller told me he is the original owner and he has never replaced the panels. Unfortunately, he can't seem to locate the serial #s on the panels. OK, so assuming that these are really CLS 1s with original panels, I'm thinking somewhere around $900-$1000 would be a fair price considering new panels cost $900.

Are boxes/packing material for these still available from ML (he asks hopefully but knows the likely answer?? ) The seller does not have the original packaging and is about a 5 hour drive from me.

 

[Rich]

The seller does not have the original packaging and is about a 5 hour drive from me.

If I were buying these, I would gladly drive the five hours there and back to personally inspect them before buying and shipping them myself vs. trusting the carriers. Five hours is a very short drive for peace of mind.

 

[C.A.P]

X2^^^^^^

 

[zbub]

Cls I

These are definitely CLS I's with CLS I panels. CLS II panels do not work with CLS I electronics from what I remembered, this is why when one orders replacement panels ML always ask for I or II panels. CLS II panels are easy to spot -- if you look at the space between the two vertical spacers to the frame, CLS I panels have equal space between left and right, while CLS II panels have one side smaller and one side larger.

I would definitely check the speakers personally and if possible, hook them up and listen to them before buying them. Check channel balance to spot possible damages to the electronics and panels. One side should not sound louder nor having a different tonal balance of course.

My 2 cents...

York

 

[kmanusa]

Now I'm really confused, I thought that these panels looked like the CLS 2 panels. But it makes sense that they're CLS 1 panels, since the electronics seem to be CLS 1 vintage and the seller told me he is the original owner and he has never replaced the panels. Unfortunately, he can't seem to locate the serial #s on the panels. OK, so assuming that these are really CLS 1s with original panels, I'm thinking somewhere around $900-$1000 would be a fair price considering new panels cost $900.

Are boxes/packing material for these still available from ML (he asks hopefully but knows the likely answer?? ) The seller does not have the original packaging and is about a 5 hour drive from me.

I don't believe there are boxes available for these but you should call Jim Power at Martin Logan to verify. I paid $1500 for a pair of CLS 1 with 2 functional panels plus a spare panel. The panels were early 1990s vintage and so I the eventually replaced them with new ones. Electronics can be repaired by M-L and new panels can be obtained-- so, the only questions are whether you want to spend the money and make the drive!! If you can get them for $900-1000, I think that is a pretty good deal!

 

[nsgarch]

Now I'm really confused, I thought that these panels looked like the CLS 2 panels. But it makes sense that they're CLS 1 panels, since the electronics seem to be CLS 1 vintage and the seller told me he is the original owner and he has never replaced the panels.

To my knowledge, the original (CLS I) panels looked like this. The vertical spars were introduced with the CLS II .

 

[kmanusa]

Neil-- those pictured indeed are the "original" CLS 1 panels. However, none of these panels survived more than a year or 2 in the field after the CLS was introduced in the 1980s. Read the Gayle Sanders interview on the ML site for background on why this is so.

In short-- these panels had to be replaced by ML due to failure which was caused by a design problem. The revised CLS 1 panel was the first one to have the vertical spars-- note that these are missing from the picture of the CLS you posted. These vertical spars were needed because the panels were no longer fully curved, they were made flat along the sides to prevent the problem that caused the original panels to fail. The vertical spars separate the flat portion of the panel along the sides from the center portion which is curved.

The revised CLS 1 panel was replaced by the CLS 2 panel later on. The replacement CLS 1 panel that can be ordered from ML today looks like the one in the picture posted at the beginning of this thread. These panels look exactly like my replacement CLS 1 panels.

 

[bigbanger]

OK, is Jim Power the best customer service rep in the audio industry or what?

I got a prompt e-mail response from him re: these CLSes. He confirmed that they are, indeed, CLS 1s from 1988 with original panels. According to Jim, original CLS 1 panels do not have serial #s.

 

[kmanusa]

OK, is Jim Power the best customer service rep in the audio industry or what?

In my experience, absolutely yes!!! :bowdown: