What MLs for my home theater setup?

[roberto]

When people talk about auditioning different speaker wires, I get a little confused. My speaker wires will not be accessible from the amps to the speakers since they will be run through the walls. Once the blow in insulation is in place it will be impossible to fish new wires through the walls, so I think I need to get it more or less right the first time.

This brings me to another question. If I am running speaker wires through the walls and terminating them on a wall plate, then from a wall plate to the speakers, do I need to concern myself with the wall plates? It seems to me these are going to be the bottlenecks in the runs. I cannot think of an esthetic way to run the speakers through the walls and then out the walls to the speakers. Thanks for the enlightenment in this area.

Hola Albertan...you can not think the interconnect or the speaker's wire as an interfase only. You have to deal with capacitance, inductance and resistance. These three things changes the signal applied per feet. My best advise is try to use a good quality cable...your ears will tell the difference. In the now days marketplace there are a lot of different shapes and quality cables, choose the one that sounds better to you, no matter the price is low. We had chosen the components of our system with effort and our own listening skills, so think in the cables as another component for your system. These also means, that not necessary the most expensive ones are the best. There are a lot of inexpensive cables around that are very musical. The less components or connectors you use, the signal is less affected...happy listening,
Roberto.

 

[Albertan]

Well I just realized one of my patients in this morning is an electrician, so I made arrangements for him to go out and sort out the electrical in the room this afternoon once we meet on the job site at lunch. He pretty much guarantees that with local code the room will be a single 15 amp loop, so thanks for the heads up to have that corrected before the walls are put up. I am going to have three 20 amp ICs put in to the rack area and every receptacle in the room (3 front wall, 2 side and rear walls) will be on a separate 20 amp IC...I think that should address that concern adequately.

I am starting to wonder if I should just have the components on a low rack below the projection screen on the front wall. I really liked the idea of tucking them away in a recessed rack in the side wall more or less out of sight. But it seems like it is going to severely limit my opportunity to interchange wires later. The front wall exposed setup seems to be better suited to tweaking at a later date. Maybe I'll have them run six 20 amp ICs to the front wall and then I'll have some options. Or I could run conduit is the front wall to facilitate changing wires later.

 

[Albertan]

Well I think I got things sorted out with the wiring. Three separate 20 amp IG circuits on the back wall, five on the front wall, and three in the equipment niche. The three remaining side wall receptacles are on a 15 amp loop and there is a separate 15 amp circuit in the ceiling for the projector. Thanks everyone for the help at a critical stage that could have been a disaster later.

 

[Craig]

I envy you for having not only a dedicated HT and Music Room but also for taking the time and investment to build it right. Many of us have to make do with the rooms we have. Regardless, they still sound great but not likely at full potential.

I started out building a HT system in my family room but somehow the HT system taught me to appreciate 2-channel music and my interest evolved into 2-channel audiophilia and Joey-Itis. However, my Joey-itis has gone into remission lately but I still do window shopping.

The Summits are an outstanding speaker and they are a few differences over the Vantage such as larger ESL panel, 400W amps per speaker, controls for the bass response and different crossovers. However, the Vantages are close to the Summits in performance and are a great value at half the price. Vantages are very capable for your HT application.

If it was my room I would opt for easy access to the back of the components. Ideally, you'd setup the components and be done with it but it never seems to work that way. The components change from time to time and there are often multiple configuration options to try out.

When you get a chance we'd like to see some photos. It would be interesting to see the progression of the room and the components you select.

 

[Albertan]

Hi

As a matter of fact I just finished my own theater which is 13.5 x 18 x 9. I was convinced I could only handle one row but as it turns out I was able to accomodate two rows of seating quite comfortably

Thanks for the feedback Jerry. I always appreciate comments from others who have similar setups and offer suggestions on how to avoid their mistakes.

So far we have hosted 11 teens at one showing without any problems except heat overload (too many hot bodies).

I have considered the HVAC system. The room has in floor heat with ducting for forced air heat/central AC. I'm also planning on putting a return in the room. Maybe I'll check and see if I could even have a thermostat put in there. I never thought of that. Thanks!

Given the choice to do it again, I probably would have used heavy acoustic vinyl in the walls, or made the walls from concrete block.

I missed out on having all four walls in concrete by a week or two. I did consider it during the first consult with Gord. We also discussed using sand in the walls, but in the end I settled on the blow in insulation. The stuff I am using is a very dense fill. The general contractor also mentioned that he planned on putting the Quiet Rock over regular drywall...I think I'll make sure he uncouples the two walls while he's at it. At any rate, the inner walls aren't going to be lightweights by any stretch.

 

[Albertan]

I second Rich's suggestion of using the 10g Belden 5000 from BlueJeans Cable. very reasonably priced and sounds great. It is what I use in my 7.1 system.

I'm thinking of running the 10g Belden 5000 myself now as well. I'm going to check on the feasibility of running conduit in the front wall so that I can change the speaker wire on the fronts later on. If I can sort that, I'll probably run the Belden for those as well at the outset.

I disagree here. My original system was Vistas (same ESL panel as Vantage but without the amplifier for the woofer). The Summit has a much larger ESL panel and it makes a big difference in the mid and high frequency, much more open sound stage. The Summits also go much lower as pointed out as well.

I read through your Member Systems thread completely Burke. I find it interesting since where you started and where you finished are pretty much the two systems I am contemplating...6 Script i's vs. Summits and 4 Script i's. I worries me that the Summits will overpower the Scripts, but based on what you and Rich have said it sounds like the Summits are the best way to go up front.

The other new upgrade at my (and Rich's) house are the power amps. I have replaced my Sunfire Stereophonic Reference (a very good amp) with the Sanders Sound System ESL amplifier (a great amp) really makes the Summits sing, does not color the sound at all. And Rodger Sanders offers the best advice and tech support. When I commented to him about pulling multiple 20amp circuits, he suggested pulling a 220v volt circuit rather than two 110s. The amps have a switch on the back for voltage. This is be a nice cost / time saver for me.

I reviewed the Sanders Sound Systems site and agree the ESL amps sound like a strong candidate for my system. I should contact Roger and discuss the 110v vs. 220v recommendation. I really don't want to go back down that road yet again.

Summits/Stage/Scripts. Belden 10g wires. Sanders ESL amps. It's starting to look like I am copying you and Rich. You know what they say about imitation. Thanks for the help guys.

 

[Albertan]

If it was my room I would opt for easy access to the back of the components. Ideally, you'd setup the components and be done with it but it never seems to work that way. The components change from time to time and there are often multiple configuration options to try out.

I'm not sure if its going to make sense, but I will explain that there are stairs into the basement running along the long inner wall where the components will be housed. So basically the equipment rack will be set into the space under the stairs and the backs of all the components will be readily accessible by opening a door and walking into the space under the stairs, which is 5-6' tall where the rack will be housed. I even had a light put into this space as close as code would allow and had the rack specced two feet off the ground. No bending over to pick heavy amps up off the floor, and basically open a door in another room and have immediate, full access to the back of all the components. Also, no glaring lights from the components under the screen while watching a movie, and a super clean setup with basically only the speakers, the screen and the projector on the roof visible in the room. As long as I sort out being able to change out the front speaker wires (I'm thinking conduit), I think I have it made in the shade in this department.

When you get a chance we'd like to see some photos. It would be interesting to see the progression of the room and the components you select.

That's a great idea Craig. I'm off now until January 7th. I have some nice photography equipment, but I do need an excuse to buy a wide angle lens. I'll also download one of those panoramic photo stitchers and see if I can figure out how to do a 360 view of the room. In fact I think one came with my Canon 30D.

 

[Albertan]

Well I made a reasonable QTVR panorama of the room, but I cannot figure out how to host it...neither smugmug nor youtube seem to like QTVRs for some reason. While I work that out, I would still appreciate comments on the Summit/Stage/Script i 7.1 setup I am currently leaning towards. I have some other questions also, but I think I should more or less nail down the speakers first. Thanks again to everyone for their help. I'm thoroughly enjoying my crash course on audiophilia.

 

[Albertan]

Guys, I know everyone is super busy this time of year. But if I could get any feedback on this speaker combo it would be immensely appreciated. With the supposed price hike discussed in the other thread, I may have to pull the trigger on $25-$30K worth of speakers before the New Year. Thanks in advance.

 

[roberto]

Guys, I know everyone is super busy this time of year. But if I could get any feedback on this speaker combo it would be immensely appreciated. With the supposed price hike discussed in the other thread, I may have to pull the trigger on $25-$30K worth of speakers before the New Year. Thanks in advance.

Hola, just a little note. The new ML line does not need a big power amp. to drive them. If you use tubes with output xformers, they will handle better the kick'back of the signal, due to a capacitance load of the electrostatic than a resistive one. The high sensitivity of the Summits allow you to use small power amps with outstanding performance. Listen Conrad Johnson, Audio Research, Cary Audio, VTL and many other good options. I am not saying that the amplifier made by Mr. Roger is not good, of course it is!...it just to make sure your decision. Happy listening,
Roberto.

 

[Rich]

I think you will be very happy with this speaker combo. I also think you would do fine using some of the ML in-wall (Voyage) or on-wall (fresco i) speakers for the surrounds, rather than the script i's. Remember, the script i's are no longer in MLs lineup, so your dealer may not be able to get any. Also, you haven't mentioned which subwoofer(s) you are considering. I would recommend one or two Descent i or Depth i subwoofers. One is plenty, but two can help smooth out the room response.

 

[Rich]

Hola, just a little note. The new ML line does not need a big power amp. to drive them. If you use tubes with output xformers, they will handle better the kick'back of the signal, due to a capacitance load of the electrostatic than a resistive one. The high sensitivity of the Summits allow you to use small power amps with outstanding performance. Listen Conrad Johnson, Audio Research, Cary Audio, VTL and many other good options. I am not saying that the amplifier made by Mr. Roger is not good, of course it is!...it just to make sure your decision. Happy listening,
Roberto.

I have to respectfully disagree with my friend Roberto on this one. Tubes are great for music, but I personally don't think they are a great fit for home theater. The decibel levels that most people play their home theaters at, combined with the sharp transients and dynamic impacts in most movie soundtracks, just make for a better presentation by a quality solid state amplifier than tube amplifier. I make this statement after detailed comparisons with my own CJ Premier 140 amplifier and the Sanders Sound monoblocs on the Summits. Other factors to consider are the heat put off by tube amps, and the hours put on the tubes. It gets expensive replacing a set of 8 or more 6550 tubes all the time and if you watch a lot of movies on a regular basis that is going to happen. Don't get me wrong -- I am a big fan of tube amps. Just not for a system that is going to be used primarily for home theater.

 

[kcl]

Guys, I know everyone is super busy this time of year. But if I could get any feedback on this speaker combo it would be immensely appreciated. With the supposed price hike discussed in the other thread, I may have to pull the trigger on $25-$30K worth of speakers before the New Year. Thanks in advance.

IMO that speaker combination is as good as you'll get in Martin Logans for home theater, and its really hard to beat Summits for music. (I actually enable only the Summits when I listen to music. Everything else, including the subs, is disabled.)

As for the pre-amps and amps, I agree with Rich on this one. I think that you want to provide a lot of quality 'punch' in this kind of home theater. I have similar needs for our system (probably 75% home theater with Summit mains and a Theater center) but without the dedicated room. I felt that I got the best HT/music results with a Sunfire TGP-5 pre feeding a Sunfire TGA-7400 amp. The TGA's 400 watts per channel provides more than enough punch, plus I found the "Current" connection to the Summits approaches tube characteristics. (See item 6 on page 9 of the TGA-7400 user's manual found here for a description of the Current vs the Voltage Source Outputs, particularly as it relates to electrostatic speakers and tubes.)

 

[Burke]

I think you will be very happy with this speaker combo. I also think you would do fine using some of the ML in-wall (Voyage) or on-wall (fresco i) speakers for the surrounds, rather than the script i's. Remember, the script i's are no longer in MLs lineup, so your dealer may not be able to get any. Also, you haven't mentioned which subwoofer(s) you are considering. I would recommend one or two Descent i or Depth i subwoofers. One is plenty, but two can help smooth out the room response.

If you can not find the Script i's, also consider the new Source. The Script i was essentially a wall mount Clarity (they both used the same panel). The Source is the Clarity's replacement, very similar panel. If you must have the wall mount I will be happy to trade for Sources. My room placement would be made easier with floor standing units. I had to build stands for two of my Scripts because I could not mount them to the wall.

I will be posting new pictures of my room after the rewire job in the next few days.

 

[Burke]

It worries me that the Summits will overpower the Scripts, but based on what you and Rich have said it sounds like the Summits are the best way to go up front.

This is not a problem at all, once you set up the HT preprocess everything is very balanced and even sounding. I have ducked from time to time, when someone swings something around you think is is there.

I should contact Roger and discuss the 110v vs. 220v recommendation. I really don't want to go back down that road yet again.

If your wiring is either done or set do not change it. I have had the new circuit installed, and when ordering the mono blocks commented to Roger that I would probably have to pull two new circuits. That's when he suggested changing to 220 and using just one circuit as a cost savings. It sounds from your previous posts that your AC wiring will be just fine.

Summits/Stage/Scripts. Belden 10g wires. Sanders ESL amps. It's starting to look like I am copying you and Rich. You know what they say about imitation. Thanks for the help guys.

Thanks for the kind words, you are very welcome.

 

[roberto]

I have to respectfully disagree with my friend Roberto on this one. Tubes are great for music, but I personally don't think they are a great fit for home theater. The decibel levels that most people play their home theaters at, combined with the sharp transients and dynamic impacts in most movie soundtracks, just make for a better presentation by a quality solid state amplifier than tube amplifier. I make this statement after detailed comparisons with my own CJ Premier 140 amplifier and the Sanders Sound monoblocs on the Summits. Other factors to consider are the heat put off by tube amps, and the hours put on the tubes. It gets expensive replacing a set of 8 or more 6550 tubes all the time and if you watch a lot of movies on a regular basis that is going to happen. Don't get me wrong -- I am a big fan of tube amps. Just not for a system that is going to be used primarily for home theater.

Hola Rich...I think all it is a matter of taste and liking. Did you know that there are brands like Conrad Johnson, Audio Research, Vtl, Cary Audio, Krell, Mark Levinson, Jeff Rowland, that are designed using Martin Logan as a tool design?...and many others. With all respect, the tubes have a lots of Joules (energy) in their power supply. You have over 250 Joules with at the power supply using only 10.000 uF with 500 V at the plates versus 80 to 90 joules using 40.000 uF with 80 V. at the transistor´s collectors. Storage energy for demand is the clue. I don´t want to debate or be controversial, but saying that tubes do not have enough power, it is not right. Just trust your ears and listen carefully. I used to gave service to our tv channel 7 with signal repeaters and at that time, everything was in tubes...and they didn´t lost their power. They were used over 15 years of continious 24 hours of work and they were o.k. Of course that tubes wears off, but it depends a lot of the user and how you handle the bias level and power. I just want to remind you the sensitivity of the Summits: 92dBs/2.83V/m. You can play them very loud with a small power amp without clipping. Also, I do know that Mr. Sanders is making a superb product and hard to beat at the price tagg of his amp. Also, reading his design, seems to work perfect with an electrostatic speaker. But again, it is a matter of liking. For $4000 I will search for a used Audio Research VT-100 MKII (rated at 110 W/ch) and will play it very loud and I do know that you will say it is enough sound presure level, and still has juice before making it to clip with the Summits. This power amplifier will rattle and shake any room with the Summits with clean sound. And yes, you are right when you say that it is expensive to change all tubes (less than $ 350.00 at the tube store). Usually, when a tube fails, the user can replace it, you can see the tube to glow more than the others...when a transistor fails, usually all the output transistors fails and it is not a user job. You have to take to a service tech or send it to the factory. It depends a lot of the damage or the fault. Also you have to replace the drivers and the surrounded resistors in the printed circuit board...not an easy task. Yes, I love tubes better than SS, but it is my liking as yours is SS, specially when you like to rock...get a big tube power amp and listen it to rock...most guitar and bass amps are tubed, using also the 6550s as output tubes. All I say is, try them...you might like them as I do...please, forgive my dare...I understand perfect what you ment regarding high sound presure level with HT...I wish to all a very happy listening,
Roberto.

 

[Albertan]

I think you will be very happy with this speaker combo. I also think you would do fine using some of the ML in-wall (Voyage) or on-wall (fresco i) speakers for the surrounds, rather than the script i's. Remember, the script i's are no longer in MLs lineup, so your dealer may not be able to get any. Also, you haven't mentioned which subwoofer(s) you are considering. I would recommend one or two Descent i or Depth i subwoofers. One is plenty, but two can help smooth out the room response.

I'm not a big fan of either of those speakers looks wise. For the money we spend on these speakers, it's nice to have their uniqueness out in the open to be seen.

Where would you place one or two subs in a room like ours Rich? I'm thinking in the back corners. It's been my understanding for some time that bass is omnidirectional so placement is not such an issue. Would two subs really be necessary with the Summits in place up front? Thanks.

 

[Rich]

Where would you place one or two subs in a room like ours Rich? I'm thinking in the back corners. It's been my understanding for some time that bass is omnidirectional so placement is not such an issue. Would two subs really be necessary with the Summits in place up front? Thanks.

Every room is different and placement of the subs takes a bit of time and effort. Only through a little trial and error will you really get it right. I have my Descent located in the rear of my room about three foot from the rear wall and four foot from the side wall. Corner placement works for some, but it generally over-emphasizes things and makes it sound too boomy. Truth is in any given room there will be several really great spots for the subwoofer and lots of really awful ones. You just have to move it around a bit and play with phase and level controls to figure out which spot works the best for you.

One thing to remember is to try not to have the sub equidistant to two perpendicular walls (i.e. the side wall and the rear wall). This is more likely to excite room modes. You might start off trying a location like two feet from the rear wall and three to five feet from the side wall. Then move it around a little and see how the sound changes at your listening position(s). Better yet, for the money you are spending with them, have your dealer come out and help you position the sub for best sound.

As to whether you "need" two subs with the Summits, of course you don't. One quality sub will do wonders for your home theater system. The reason people use two subs is not for a greater volume level, but for a more even room response. The more subs you use, the easier it is to get a more even overall bass response (meaning less peaks and nulls at various listening positions). Having the Summits up front will certainly help in this regard.

The other ways to achieve this goal are to use a lot of bass traps (room acoustic treatments) in the corners, and use a surround sound processor that incorporates some form of Digital Bass Management room correction software (like Audyssey, or Meridian MRC).

In my system, I have one Descent and I love it. It blends great with the Summits and provides more than enough impact for home theater. I would love to upgrade it to the Descent i. I honestly think one Descent i is probably all the sub you will ever need. Better to spend three grand on bass traps or digital bass correction than on a second subwoofer, I would think.

 

[Craig]

Where would you place one or two subs in a room like ours Rich? I'm thinking in the back corners. It's been my understanding for some time that bass is omnidirectional so placement is not such an issue. Would two subs really be necessary with the Summits in place up front? Thanks.

It's true that the lower the frequency the less directional it becomes. This has been a Bose statement and marketing gimmick for many years. the truth is that is there is a lot more acoustic science involved with all frequencies including the lower bass freqs than just assuming bass is omnidirectional, and therefore it does not matter where a sub is placed. The location of a sub in a room usually result in large variations of the volume and quality of the bass, even with the Blose bass module (it doesn't play a low enough freqs to qualify as a true sub so they call it a bass module).

Bass freqs (waves) are bouncing of the walls and interacting with each other either canceling each other out or emphasizing specific freqs creating peaks and nulls). 2 well placed subs in a room go a long way towards reducing this effect. In fact, 2 smaller subs will usually perform better than a single larger sub. The advantage of a larger sub is that it will perform to a lower freq but that doesn't occur very often in movies and even less in music.

 

[Albertan]

If you can not find the Script i's, also consider the new Source. The Script i was essentially a wall mount Clarity (they both used the same panel). The Source is the Clarity's replacement, very similar panel. If you must have the wall mount I will be happy to trade for Sources. My room placement would be made easier with floor standing units. I had to build stands for two of my Scripts because I could not mount them to the wall.

I will be posting new pictures of my room after the rewire job in the next few days.

I'm not sure how Sources or any other floor mount surround speakers will fit in my room. I just don't consider it that big. If I have to set my rear speakers a few feet from the back/side walls like the Summits up front, I defnitely won't be getting two rows of seating in. Which brings up another question. Given what I have learned of the dipolar nature of the ESL speakers and why they are best palced off the walls, how is it that the Scripts work well as wall mounts? This seems to contradict what I have learned, and yet they are very highly regarded in HT setups.

Burke, I may take you up on your offer. Assuming I get a satisfactory answer to the question above, I much prefer the look of the Scripts out of the way on the walls. Thanks. I'm looking forward to new pictures of your system.