What causes panels to wear out?

[JonFo]

I’m inclined to replace woofers with a spec that will perform comfortably higher into the mids and raise the panel crossover point higher. 350-400range.

The options I mentioned in this earlier post would work well: https://www.martinloganowners.com/threads/what-causes-panels-to-wear-out.20113/post-214190

And if anyone wants some serious mid-bass dynamics, the answer is to deploy an MBM setup, which is straightforward with an 8-channel miniDSP or the six-channel DriveRack Venu360. See: https://www.martinloganowners.com/threads/mbm-deployment.17781/
The MBM is one of the most effective ways to make the system perform in the mid-bass area. Big action movies are a ton of fun, and dance music now has that chest-slam needed to satisfy. However, even classical music and solo piano (my standard) are not overdone and sound natural.

Many ex-ESL owners report returning to Dynamic speakers to regain that mid-bass hit. Had they deployed an MBM, they could have had the best of both worlds.

 

[Chippieboy]

Thanks again JonFo, I'm not sure if 8 Channel is the best option for me as my whole 2 bedroom house is 750 square feet. I just have enough room for 1 ML Sub and the ReQuest are a bit overwhelming in the Living Room. The Sequels fit a bit better but as we know have a 10" woofer vs. the ReQuest has the 12s.
I do have a quick question, based on your previous suggestion, I was going to upgrade the Woofers. I was looking for a Fs close to OEM ML but now reading your post's, I should look for a Woofer that has a high frequency response. Is that true?

 

[JonFo]

I do have a quick question, based on your previous suggestion, I was going to upgrade the Woofers. I was looking for a Fs close to OEM ML but now reading your post's, I should look for a Woofer that has a high frequency response. Is that true?

Yes, you want something that is clean to at least 500Hz. In the active crossover, you can use something like 350Hz 24dB/Octave between the woofer and panel.
If the room is small, then no need to get complicated, one sub should do it, even with the Sequels.

 

[Davioj]

I'm looking to go active crossover, do you have to change wiring in the cabinet when you unhook the old woofer because I'm not sure how to do this.

 

[Tosh]

Yes, you must bypass the passive bass xo (cap and inductor) and connect the woofer directly to the second pair of speaker binding posts.

 

[Davioj]

So to bypass do you have to have a lot of knowledge on the wiring and how to read schematics to preform this or would a repair shop be able to do this if you brought them the boards

 

[JonFo]

So to bypass do you have to have a lot of knowledge on the wiring and how to read schematics to preform this or would a repair shop be able to do this if you brought them the boards

No, it's super simple. Open the speaker so you can reach the inside portion of the speaker terminals, and disconnect the two wires that go to the low-pass XO (typically the lower of the two terminals). Disconnect (or cut) the wires that go from the XO components to the Woofer itself, strip the ends, and then connect to the terminals, ensuring that the positive (+) of the woofer is connected to the red side of the terminal.

If the wire is not long enough, create a new wire with spades to connect to the woofer.

Please read through this thread, as it has pictures from units that have been modified: https://www.martinloganowners.com/threads/how-to-active-bass-section.19237/

 

[Davioj]

So if I read this right I just need to disconnect the red and black wires from the board in the cabinet then connect to the woofer directly from the terminals to the red and black on the woofer, then get an amp like the one that Brandon Hartwick used lets say the crown XLS drivecourse 1002 turn them on setup the bypass and done, connecting the signal that is from my amplifier split so 1 feed goes to the panel terminal and the other goes to the woofer terminals as I have a set of reQuest speakers that have the 2 sets of terminals. So I don't need to modify or change anything else on the board itself, would this be correct.

Dave

 

[Zwick]

When I did active bass on my QuestZ my existing power amplifier continued to power the panel via top speaker terminals. The new Crown XLS received a separate feed from my preamp (you can use y splitters if only one rca output from pre amp) and then powered the woofers via bottom speaker terminals. Two sets of speaker wire are required one from each amp.

Inside the cabinet the wires from the woofers (red and black) were disconnected from the board and connected directly to the lower incoming speaker wire terminals.

The challenging part for me was removing the steel backing off the speaker. Even after screws are removed the back plate was stuck fast to the speaker body. The great recommendation in the thread was to use a razor blade and hammer it around the panel to get it to release vs trying to pry and damage it in the process. It took me a number of attempts before the back panel would release.

 

[Davioj]

So if I read this right I just need to disconnect the red and black wires from the board in the cabinet then connect to the woofer directly from the terminals to the red and black on the woofer, then get an amp like the one that Brandon Hartwick used lets say the crown XLS drivecourse 1002 turn them on setup the bypass and done, connecting the signal that is from my amplifier split so 1 feed goes to the panel terminal and the other goes to the woofer terminals as I have a set of reQuest speakers that have the 2 sets of terminals. So I don't need to modify or change anything else on the board itself, would this be correct.

Dave

I have been reading over this thread and maybe I missed something in my first post above, I have reQuest speakers so to bypass the passive XO all you have to do is cut the wires from the bottom terminals of the speaker to the XO board then cut the wires that go from the XO board to the woofer and connect these 2 wires back to the bottom 2 terminals of the speaker. Now I'm wondering I have 2, 2 channel Anthem amps 1 for 1 speaker and 1 for the other as I have been biamping my speakers if I use these amps and put 1 feed to the top terminals and the other to the bottom terminals using an active XO in the path from my preamp to the amp would this work it is 300 watt feed or am I better getting a class D amp XO like the Crown XLS drivecourse 1002 and having much more power to run the woofers, even 2 of these bridged 1 for each speaker, they are not a lot of money $1100 for a pair of them. Hopefully I got this right and this is the way to bypass the passive XO and any suggestions on the amps and the best way to go would be appreciated. I know I can sell 1 of the 2 channel amps with no problems.

Dave

 

[Tosh]

Any other ideas on crossovers?

What are you finding out there? Where are you coming from? Are you looking at DSP or analog?

Would you try this old school adjustable analog xo? (needs transformer)
https://www.amazon.com/59Hz-234Hz-9V-12V-Low-Pass-Electronic-Crossover/dp/B0DFGZXQMF/ref=sr_1_7?crid=2F2U9HSK2Y4W5&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.EslGmq4NC4lcYwbn3DnVrOJ5Ai4ng1gPBwTLwMOmlb8wxPOzj43jF1pK16X9cYB9rVFat-m8GEZfXGnv7FXXY7H5bLAPs9iBTb3rrDYJuWcv71jEpDbFoA2ovrkMo8dU0i6MSqVy-sL0Rs5cyCK9-15oKksz710lBLKYSKyy0XRlyq3Cun0X1eh5SnkDZvw1-3XW6ZFgNPFYkck1O1A4C155i9EBvrjfQ4b0irSDj9g.jukz1i1PfBv0CcEg7boz59mfx_yZKsRV-yU9b7RGol0&dib_tag=se&keywords=electronic+crossover&qid=1733542884&sprefix=electronic+cross,aps,229&sr=8-7

I ASS-ume they're hiding the voltage regulators underneath....

 

[Robert Perry]

1st There is no problem with the speakers. That is why I posted here. Super curious as to what makes the sound/go bad. Just with the passage of time they should be shot. But they are not.
2nd I noticed for the first time last night that there is a small LED at the bottom that illuminates when on. That tells me they shut off when no music signal is present. I'm guessing when they are not being listened to, they have no charge present to attract pollutants. Perhaps that is why they still sound great. Maybe only a year of actual listening time.
3rd I did the math and the cost of the speakers and new panels will be less than 4K. That means a go on new panels for me.
4th I was thinking of replacing the caps in the crossover. I do have the ability to use a MiniDSP I have unused on a shelf somewhere. Not sure what direction to go there. Please advise. I'm not sure how to separate the xover components from the power supply components if using an active xover. I have not looked inside yet the speakers yet.
5th I was thinking of doing a side by side test. A B comparison is too hard. I will use the Sequel on one side and a Request on the other. Use Mono mode and listen to how each panel sounds. I am guessing the Request will be superb but the Sequels are completely rebuilt. I can't wait to hear the differance.
6th Amp choice. I know this is an age old question. Currently I am running a newly refurbished Sunfire. I also have in my fleet, Bryston 3B and a Mark Levinson Model 23. I do like the ML but it is a room heater that can play music. Any thoughts?
BYW...Thanks for all the replies from the forum.

How do you know if the panels are going? Can you hear it? On some music i hear what seems like a rattle in my Aerius. but then it could be the music...I haven't had them up and running as they are now for very long. Just wondering. I think the Aerius replacement panels are $995 which is more than I paid for them. Seems terrible to dump them but I think putting the $1000 into something else might be better direction. But they're good for now.

 

[Robert D]

How do you know if the panels are going? Can you hear it? On some music i hear what seems like a rattle in my Aerius. but then it could be the music...I haven't had them up and running as they are now for very long. Just wondering. I think the Aerius replacement panels are $995 which is more than I paid for them. Seems terrible to dump them but I think putting the $1000 into something else might be better direction. But they're good for now.

The way I could tell was a loss of upper frequency, the panels put out low dB. The amp powering my speakers had to input enough power that it was + 12 dB in my receiver setting once running Audyssey. If I turned off Audyssey, the woofers easily over powered the panels and they sounded terrible. Audyssey took out a bunch of woofer output to balance them out.
I've got new Prodigy panels now and it sounds great. Now the speakers are just +1db.
As it was prior, I was making that nice stereo amp I use for the Prodigies work really hard.

 

[Davioj]

How do you know if the panels are going? Can you hear it? On some music i hear what seems like a rattle in my Aerius. but then it could be the music...I haven't had them up and running as they are now for very long. Just wondering. I think the Aerius replacement panels are $995 which is more than I paid for them. Seems terrible to dump them but I think putting the $1000 into something else might be better direction. But they're good for now.

Hey Robert just what are you going to get for a $1000 dollars, I repaneled my reQuests and it cost me $2200 now I have a set of speakers that sound fantastic, I probably didn't even need to replace them yet but time said to do it while you can still get the panels and that is not too much to have into a set of ML speakers go try to buy a set comparable to them and you are going to spend a lot more, but that is just my 2cents worth.

Dave

 

[DanR]

Hey Robert just what are you going to get for a $1000 dollars, I repaneled my reQuests and it cost me $2200 now I have a set of speakers that sound fantastic, I probably didn't even need to replace them yet but time said to do it while you can still get the panels and that is not too much to have into a set of ML speakers go try to buy a set comparable to them and you are going to spend a lot more, but that is just my 2cents worth.

Dave

Couldn’t agree with you more Dave, for what the panels cost you wouldn’t come close to finding speakers that even come close to what the repaneled Logans would sound. I did the same as you did with my Odysseys and couldn’t be happier. And I’m set for 20-25 years.

Dan

 

[amey01]

Couldn’t agree with you more Dave, for what the panels cost you wouldn’t come close to finding speakers that even come close to what the repaneled Logans would sound. I did the same as you did with my Odysseys and couldn’t be happier. And I’m set for 20-25 years.

Dan

It's an interesting feasibility equation.

In a simplistic sense, you're spending more than the speakers are worth. That makes about as much sense as infecting yourself with leprosy.

But agree - ES speakers do [some] things better than any other speaker on the market. You're going to be hard up trying to beat the MLs' performance for $2200 (or whatever re-panelling costs you).

I'm just a tad aggrieved (still) about what 2 bits of metal with some film inside cost. Although understand fully - it's a niche, high-precision product that is made and sold in very small numbers. The sticking point though, is that panels do have a finite lifespan - and consequently could be classed as "consumable".

If there was a little more support to help those who have invested in these speakers keep them running long-term, then I'd probably own 15As right now. Sadly (for me at least), an AUD $45,000 purchase is not a "run it 'till the panels wear out, then throw it in the rubbish" type of purchase.

 

[Davioj]

It's an interesting feasibility equation.

In a simplistic sense, you're spending more than the speakers are worth. That makes about as much sense as infecting yourself with leprosy.

But agree - ES speakers do [some] things better than any other speaker on the market. You're going to be hard up trying to beat the MLs' performance for $2200 (or whatever re-panelling costs you).

I'm just a tad aggrieved (still) about what 2 bits of metal with some film inside cost. Although understand fully - it's a niche, high-precision product that is made and sold in very small numbers. The sticking point though, is that panels do have a finite lifespan - and consequently could be classed as "consumable".

If there was a little more support to help those who have invested in these speakers keep them running long-term, then I'd probably own 15As right now. Sadly (for me at least), an AUD $45,000 purchase is not a "run it 'till the panels wear out, then throw it in the rubbish" type of purchase.

amey01 how do you figure that you are spending more than what they are worth, I have about $5500 into mine and JonFo posted an answer to my question that I had about what I would need to replace them (reQuests) he said at least 13A's, they are $25000 + tax up here in Canada and even if you get a set 1 tier lower still $15500 + TX about $17000 so I think rebuilding is the best way to go, I don't have that kind of money to put out on a fixed pension income. Anyway I am more than happy with my system, going to send my Anthem amps in to put upgraded mods into them, my buddy sent hi carver amps into audioconnexions said they come back sounding way better then when they were new and his carvers were from the 80's. Anyway happy listening.

Dave

 

[amey01]

amey01 how do you figure that you are spending more than what they are worth

Exhibit A: https://www.martinloganowners.com/threads/ml-request-speakers.19301/

Exhibit B: https://www.stereonet.com/forums/to...n-logan-request-active-speaker-electrostatic/

Exhibit C: https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/650009488-martin-logan-request-speaker-system/

Exhibit B is in AUD, (so about USD $650), and actually included new panels at the time of sale - so --ostensibly--, the panels are worth less ON the speaker than unfitted. OR - you could have got new speakers and new panels for about half the cost of repanelling yours.

Ok, I'm being facetious - but you asked how I know - that's how I know.

Seriously - I can absolutely see the value equation. It's just a funny one to conflate.

It also goes to demonstrate what astounding value ML is - you would not get that level of sound on the right side of $20k in any other speaker system.

so I think rebuilding is the best way to go

I do agree.

 

[Jazzman53]

If you have a pair of panels that are fading, the speakers are sounding bass heavy, and perhaps you could EQ away some of the bass to bring the speaker closer to balanced response but at some point you conclude there is nothing left to do but rebuild or replace the panels or take a bigger hit and buy new speakers.

In any case, by this time you have nothing to lose, so consider the rebuild option in my thread below.
https://www.martinloganowners.com/threads/restore-dead-panels-for-100.20152/