What A Mistake

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I've been reading this thread, dreading the fact that I can not even consider any upgrades right now until the new house is done. Then it occured to me, I am about to experience a wonderful upgrade with a dedicated listening room! I've tried to incorporate any tidbits I could glean from discussions online, without adding significant cost to the house. I'm anxious to see how much difference this makes.

With that said, I too am thoroughly enjoying my Clarity's, but look forward to the day I can afford to upgrade. Because of this, I refuse to visit the local dealer for critical listening on the Vantages or Summits. This is the same approach I take when I read about an interesting car. I will not test drive until I am ready to purchase...because I know I don't have the will power! :rolleyes:
 
I've been reading this thread, dreading the fact that I can not even consider any upgrades right now until the new house is done. Then it occured to me, I am about to experience a wonderful upgrade with a dedicated listening room! I've tried to incorporate any tidbits I could glean from discussions online, without adding significant cost to the house. I'm anxious to see how much difference this makes.

With that said, I too am thoroughly enjoying my Clarity's, but look forward to the day I can afford to upgrade. Because of this, I refuse to visit the local dealer for critical listening on the Vantages or Summits. This is the same approach I take when I read about an interesting car. I will not test drive until I am ready to purchase...because I know I don't have the will power! :rolleyes:

Your upgrade, the room, is the ultimate upgrade. Greater gains can be made nowhere else in the system, ATC, than in upgrading the room. Sweet!
 
Very well spoken. I appreciate your insight. I look forward to someday getting the opportunity to listen to a source as capable as your analog setup.

Can I agree with both of you?! :D

I, like Rich, prefer to spend more money up front on the speakers than on the source gear. I think there is less development and improvement in speakers than in the source thus the speakers will go "out of date" more slowly than the source gear. That is the case today...might not be tomorrow.

Like risabet though, you need to have good gear if you want to make good music AND if you are doing a 2ch system knowing that you are going to move up to an HT system or move those speakers to a zone 2 in the future and a good deal comes up on source gear then get that first knowing you are compromised in one place for a time but will change that.

Risabet, in the future I want to upgrade from my P2/RB300/Exact, to something more. Not sure why...Joeyitis maybe, but I like the name and the look of the VPI Super Scoutmaster. What are your thoughts on that and what cart would I need for it and a good price on something like that? You can PM me on that if you want so we don't hog this thread and bore everyone else.
 
Your upgrade, the room, is the ultimate upgrade. Greater gains can be made nowhere else in the system, ATC, than in upgrading the room. Sweet!

I agree 101%........my dream is to have a dedicated listening room both for listening pleasure and the fact that no other upgrade will play as greater role as the room. Just set up any system in the bathroom if you don't agree with me. Congratulations on your dedicated room.....no kids, no TV, just pure listening pleasure, soundproofed so that you can listen as loud as you like, whenever you like. Make sure you post some pics!
 
I guess this is where I disagree with your logic. Ultimately, it all comes down to what you consider to be "better" sound. I agree that a higher end turntable will bring out some detail from a recording that a lesser turntable may not retrieve, but how much extra detail does a $5,500 setup bring out over a $1,500 setup? Surely not that much more.

I believe that enjoyment of music is about much more than just the details. The overall tonality, the fullness of the sonic spectrum, the size of the soundstage. All of these things play into the enjoyment of a particular audio setup. I firmly believe that a pair of Summits or Vantages in your setup with a $1,500 turntable, would produce a better overall sound and a higher quality listening experience, albeit less detailed, than your $5,500 rig with the Clarities.

This is just my opinion and I understand that you have a different one, which is why you have made the decisions that you have. I fully respect that and I don't mean to demean your choices. I think you have assembled an excellent system. If and when you do decide to upgrade your speakers, I have no doubt you will be able to draw every last ounce of detail from them that they are capable of producing.

Ultimately, I guess I just differ with you on the importance of the source vs. the transducers as far as a percentage of the overall system budget. I think you get much more bang for the buck by spending more on preamp/amp combo and speakers than on the source component.

It is kind of a chicken or egg sort of thing. On the one hand, you believe a higher quality speaker cannot replay information that a lower quality source isn't able to retrieve; On the other hand, I believe that a lower quality speaker isn't even able to accurately replay all of the information that is coming from a lower quality source, so what good is feeding it more information from a higher quality source. Until you have a transducer that is capable of rendering all of the dynamics, tonal range and soundstage presented by a less expensive source, why upgrade to a more capable source?

OK, I have beat this thing to death and I apologize for hijacking the thread. I am not trying to prove my point because I don't think there is any point to be proved. My logic doesn't make any more sense than your logic -- they are just different ways of looking at the same thing. I am really just interested in having the discussion and in understanding other people's perspectives. I appreciate you sharing your opinions and listening to mine.

The down side is that a high quality transducer can replay all of what a lower quality source put outs ( The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly). Hey, about $1500 will get you a sweet pair of CLS's or SL3's.

I would argue that a good catridge is a more important than the table/arm. Within reason of course. Does the $5500 include a new cartridge?
 
The Listening Environment...

Your upgrade, the room, is the ultimate upgrade. Greater gains can be made nowhere else in the system, ATC, than in upgrading the room. Sweet!
Robert,

I agree, The listening environment is my biggest system component. It is also the most crucial. My system is near field listening and is adjusted as such. Even though it is small, it is dedicated, tweaked, sonically improved and powered to provide the most from my system. Sure it could use a few more adjustments / improvements to be sure. Still, one of my biggest dreams is to someday soon (just under five years from now) expend into a much bigger listening space. It will be a huge system improvement, after I make several sonic room adjustments and improvements, of course.

I also do agree with your emphasis on the source being of the highest quality. Phono, CD/SACD, DVD/HD DVD/Blue Ray, Slim Device etc., must be optimal and possess superior sonic qualities. ;)
 
Your upgrade, the room, is the ultimate upgrade. Greater gains can be made nowhere else in the system, ATC, than in upgrading the room. Sweet!

Just make sure its not over or under damped. I have heard horror stories with initial attempts with decicated listening rooms.
 
I feel your pain. So, how much time did you spend today thinking about how you can make the purchase happen. How many different mental approaches to talking to your wife did you have. When I start looking at new equipment it's like being hypnotized. I can't stop thinking about it. Having to think about work is really difficult.
 
I've been saving hard for several months now in a seporate super secret saving account and have only managed to save-up $1.5K... At this rate I might have a pair of Summits or maybe CLX's / Descent i just before I retire... :rolleyes:

I think I'll try the Ramen diet and save my lunch money and start my own secret account. I could stand to lose a few pounds anyways.
The best part of this hobby of ours is indeed the fact that money does not grow on trees. One small step at a time - but fully enjoying it - we tend towards audio nirvana, we build our own highway to it and we can constantly measure the already traveled path. If I were a stamp collector, suddently winning at the lottery and being able to buy 20'000 stamps, would I be happy ? I don't think so. Or buying 2 MBL's for the rear channels and Statements for the fronts, just because I can ? Horrible... It is the travelling towards it that gives the most rewards, not the arrival: one cable after the other, put some spikes here, move that TV out of the way, sell that amp and buy another, share the journey with friends that feel the same and understand you, that's what it's all about, IMHO.
Lugano, very well said, I've bee n enjoying the journey for most of my life.
Your upgrade, the room, is the ultimate upgrade. Greater gains can be made nowhere else in the system, ATC, than in upgrading the room. Sweet!
Robert,
How true, I should be thankful for what I have.
I feel your pain. So, how much time did you spend today thinking about how you can make the purchase happen. How many different mental approaches to talking to your wife did you have. When I start looking at new equipment it's like being hypnotized. I can't stop thinking about it. Having to think about work is really difficult.
Brad,
Agonized all day, even found a pair of Summits on Audigon for sale for just $7,500 and only an hour drive from my house.:eek:
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrplan&1173301511
Already broached the subject with the wife, she says "Wayne I know you, in a couple of months you'll somehow manage to get a pair of those speakers" all the while giving me the evil eye. Went out and bought some new music to get my mind off the Summits,then spent the afternoon playing with my speaker placement and accoustical panel placement to try and recreate the sound of the Summits to no avail. Someday I'll get my hands on a pair, hopefully sooner than later.
 
...
PS: Waiting for the proposed CLX as I'd prefer to go full range ESL with subs, Clarity's in the rear surround.
...
Risabet, this makes perfect sense to me, and I want the CLXs, too. Last November I upgraded from Aeons to Vantages because I did not want to wait that long. The question of getting Summits did come up.

Instead, my next expenditures will focus on improving my source components, too. But those will be neither analog nor tube based ;).

1/5th dime.
 
theWB,
I too gave a listen to the Summits this past weekend but my take was a little different than yours. I also have the Odyssey's and thought the Summits "may have sounded a little better" but not enough for the $$ difference. I think I would much rather buy a set of used Prodigies and spend the left over $4-6000 dollars on other gear. Just my opinion though. The Summits were nice, just not that nice.

John
PS-I did end up walking out of that store about $2K poorer with a TT under my wifes arm though!!:D
 
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broached the subject with the wife, she says "Wayne I know you, in a couple of months you'll somehow manage to get a pair of those speakers" all the while giving me the evil eye. Went out and bought some new music to get my mind off the Summits,then spent the afternoon playing with my speaker placement and accoustical panel placement to try and recreate the sound of the Summits to no avail. Someday I'll get my hands on a pair, hopefully sooner than later.


Wayne, Not trying to make you feel any worse, but be thankfull that you listened to the Summitt's at a Tweeter shop as oppossed to a Salon that REALLY new how to set them up !! Then you would be agonizing !!!

FWIW, I stopped at a new Tweeter (Wilmington,De) today to look at replacing a receiver in my little 5.1 HT set-up and was appalled by how they had ALL the Logans set-up. maybe things are different out your way but I have NEVER been in a Tweeter that impressed me with knowledge or set-up. Also FWIW, according to the Manager of the Wilmington store..................two channel is dead and EVERYBODY will be listening to suround systems only !!
 
Wayne, Not trying to make you feel any worse, but be thankfull that you listened to the Summitt's at a Tweeter shop as oppossed to a Salon that REALLY new how to set them up !! Then you would be agonizing !!!

FWIW, I stopped at a new Tweeter (Wilmington,De) today to look at replacing a receiver in my little 5.1 HT set-up and was appalled by how they had ALL the Logans set-up. maybe things are different out your way but I have NEVER been in a Tweeter that impressed me with knowledge or set-up. Also FWIW, according to the Manager of the Wilmington store..................two channel is dead and EVERYBODY will be listening to suround systems only !!

The manager is an idiot!
 
theWB,
I too gave a listen to the Summits this past weekend but my take was a little different than yours. I also have the Odyssey's and thought the Summits "may have sounded a little better" but not enough for the $$ difference.

The guy that has worked at the ML dealer here in Austin for YEARS just bought a set of Summit's. He LOVES THEM! He upgraded from SL3's or was it ReQuests...I can't remember. He sold a LOT of Odyssey's and says the Summits sound a bit better to him. They sold VERY FEW Prodigy as he had said they were not as much better than the Odyssey as the price was higher. That said, I would say you are right on the money...get a NICE set of used Prodigy and save the money! Of course the Prodigy are HUGE so if you don't have room for them that is a good reason to go w/ the Summit, also if you don't like the "look" of the Prodigy but do like the Summit that would be another reason to go w/ them but for sound I suspect they are about even... You might have a bit more flexibility w/ the Prodigy as well as you can bi-amp them in any way you choose.
 
Not even connected, eh ? I bet that they weren't even broke-in... immagine the sound after a week :devil:

Anyway, when Joey will sell his and getting the CLX, you'll sell your Odysseys and rush at Joey's place ;)

I think this might happen! If I sell the SUmmits, you'll get first dibs, Wayne!
 
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theWB,
I too gave a listen to the Summits this past weekend but my take was a little different than yours. I also have the Odyssey's and thought the Summits "may have sounded a little better" but not enough for the $$ difference. I think I would much rather buy a set of used Prodigies and spend the left over $4000 dollars on other gear. Just my opinion though. The Summits were nice, just not that nice.

John
PS-I did end up walking out of that store about $2K poorer with a TT under my wifes arm though!!:D

That's without good equipment, right? With the right equipment... i.e. tubes in the system somewhere and good upstream, the Summits are another beast. The Summits I have now are not the same as the Summits I had when I had the entry level Rotels of yesteryear.... not even in the same league.
 
Wayne, Not trying to make you feel any worse, but be thankfull that you listened to the Summitt's at a Tweeter shop as oppossed to a Salon that REALLY new how to set them up !! Then you would be agonizing !!!
Dave, messed around with the placement while I was there never could get them to image right, But the sound still blew me away.
I think this might happen! If I sell the SUmmits, you'll get first dibs, Wayne!
Joey,
You can always buy a house in my neighborhood. I promise I want drop by unannounced to often,maybe just 4 or 5 times a week. Or I could babysit your Summits when your on vacation.:D
 
be thankfull that you listened to the Summitt's at a Tweeter shop as oppossed to a Salon that REALLY new how to set them up !! Then you would be agonizing !!!

That brings me back a year when I was auditioning speakers. I walked into Sound Advice (tweeter) in Boca Raton and asked to audition The Summits, which I had recently read about. The salesman set them up with a Denon receiver ugh... and worse yet sourced that receiver with a Pioneer DVD player! The Summits sounded horrific ....so I left.

At that time JoeyV (yes ourt own Joey) had started a thread over at HTG forum about everybody's favorite $5K speaker system.Of course his was the Vantage!.. I had seen Joey around for quite awhile at Club Rotel so I knew he was not your typical Rotel flake. I took his comments about ML seriously enough to go back to SA and insist that they set the Summits up properly. One of the managers there, who has since become a real friend commented that he had just purchased The Summits to replace his Aeons, and how great they were. He insisted I wait while he personally dragged the pair from their high end speaker room to a private room and hooked them up with a Krell integrated amp and CDP. I still wasn't enamored with what I heard, because those Summits had less than 2 hours on them, so he suggested that I could purchase a pair and return if I was displeased with them at home. I pulled out the Gold Card...and the rest is pleasant history!
 
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