What a mess !!!

[Satch]

Well it's so good to be here, asleep on your lawn
Remember your guard dog? Well, I'm afraid that he's gone
It was such a drag to hear him whining
All night long... oooowwwwwwwwwhhhhhhhhoooooooo...

Neil Young from the song Revolution Blues. Album; On the Beach

I know, I know, wrong thread. It's all Todd's fault.

Cheers!

 

[repman]

Agreed Larry, as I said before (and I'll say again).....there are times I wish the earth were flat, that way the idiots that are far right and left would all fall off !

Dave that is hilarious!

 

[Kevin]

Well, I'd agree with all the above (quite good analysis, actually) except for that last sentence, which is absolutely NOT true. President Obama just slammed all federal workers with a two-year pay freeze...something which Rush Limbaugh / Fox News may have "neglected" to cover well. That sure seems like "pain" to me.

If I recall correctly, the pay freeze was just on the cost of living adjustments. They still get their step increases, I'm pretty sure, according to the government schedule. I get paid based upon commissions, so I need to grow my client base year after year to increase my income. Even when I worked different jobs when I was younger, I never was told by one of my employers that they were going to give me a raise to keep up with inflation. I had to show I was worth a raise either through more experience, knowledge or production.

Now this is just nonsense. Non-federal workers -- heck, even the military -- have all of these things available as well. At least, AFAIK. Doesn't your company offer sick days? Paid Vacation? Holidays? I must say that you seem to have a very strong anti-federal worker, anti-federal government prejudice, which is certainlyu understandable given the venom-spewing (and lying) Hannity/Fox/Coulter/Limbaugh crowd, which, while I'm sure pays them extremely well, only serves to divide the Country. Sure would be nice if once in a while they could find their way to give credit where credit is due, instead of just screeching hatred at one party and praising the other. Sorta shrinks their credibility, don't it?

Nonsense? I didn't say private employees don't get sick, holiday or vacation days. I said that federal employees get way more on average. I do have a bit of anti-federal prejudice, but I would say that even more so that I'm just extremely jealous. If I could take back time I would have applied for a federal position myself. At my current age, had I started working not long after school, I would certainly find myself with many more days to take off to go fishing! I have lived within 20 miles of DC for more than 20 years. For over 20 more I have lived within 50 miles. So I have had plenty of family, friends and neighbors over the years to come to the conclusion that you get far more days off as a government employee 'on average' than someone working in the private sector. I say on average, because there might be large corporations that have a liberal work schedule, but most average Joes aren't in that position.

Now, just where did you get THAT statistic? Could it be that you, uh, heard this from.......one of the above-referenced sources? I ask because, well, we all know how accurate THEY are...

Why almost every time, on this board and others, when you get into a discussion of politics, liberals feel the need to start bashing Hannity, Rush and other conservative talk show hosts. As though this must be where anyone who leans conversative must get all their opinions. Why not just stick to historical trends, facts, or opinions, because none of this is an exact science. I happen to watch Morning Joe in the mornings when I get ready for work. Hardly a conservative program. I read the opinion pages of the Washington Post during my lunch breaks. I read far more opinions from E J Dionne, Eugene Robinson, Harold Meyerson, Richard Cohen and many more liberals compared to the few conservative writers they have. I wouldn't feel the need to say that you must get your information from Keith Olbermann, Chris Matthews, Randi Rhodes or any other liberal hosts. I'm sure you have a mind of your own. Perhaps your parents are liberal. I have no idea where you get your liberal ideology from, and don't really care because in the end it doesn't really matter.

 

[Gordon Gray]

Hi Kevin,

Been on vacation so my first foray into this thread.

First off, I think all members have done an outstanding job of keeping the discussion civil. One comment on your last paragraph and accuracy of facts.

This is not meant to be R v D but one recent example caught my attention.

When the President was on his last overseas trip to try to drum up support for American products, Ms. McConnel (tea party elect / hope I got the name right), went on the air to announce, based on some apparent blogger in India I believe, that the President's trip, including the various staff and press that accompanied, was costing taxpayers $200,000,000 per day. I assume she held the new conference to make the American people aware of excess spending on the part of the current Administration. Apparently that's all Mr. Limbaugh needed to justify stating the same thing on his radio talk show. Of course, the "apparent fact" seemed to be based on Ms. McConnel's press conference statement.

After some research by the press, the number turned out to be totally unfounded and bogus.

Also needless to say, neither of those individuals apologized for the URRRRR misstatement.

GG

PS: Dave, I have the answer to your question regarding who hired that person in the video.

Same one who hired Dan Brown, who was the head of FEMA, when Katrina happened.

 

[97ChameleonTA]

President Obama just slammed all federal workers with a two-year pay freeze...something which Rush Limbaugh / Fox News may have "neglected" to cover well. That sure seems like "pain" to me.

I wasn't going to post any further as i'm not sure a political thread, being as divisive as they can, is good for this site but this statement has just nagged at me.

It begs a question....Do you really believe that pay freezes haven't been prevalent, dare I say even rampant, in the private sector for at least a few years before the president's decision?

That's not even taking into account the huge number of layoffs, or "RIFs" as they like to term it now for political correctness , in the private sector...

 

[Rich]

It begs a question....Do you really believe that pay freezes haven't been prevalent, dare I say even rampant, in the private sector for at least a few years before the president's decision?

He never said or implied that. He posted that statement as a direct response to someone else saying that federal workers aren't feeling any pain from the recession.

 

[97ChameleonTA]

He never said or implied that. He posted that statement as a direct response to someone else saying that federal workers aren't feeling any pain from the recession.

That's my point... By comparison to the private sector, they aren't! They will still maintain their cost of living increase (not included in the merit freeze by Obama), which is more than most private sector workers will see from a raise and that's IF they get a raise at all. Along with that, they will still get their pension paid for as well as their health care.

I've worked both sides of the fence. I was military, then private sector, then a state employee and now back to private sector. I can tell you, there is a comfortable insulation that comes with a government job that just doesn't resemble the real world. I don't feel sorry for government workers because the way I see it, they are just now getting a glimpse of what the real world has been going through for at least two years now.

I should add, in no way am I grouping any of our armed forces in my comparison.

 

[twich54]

i'm not sure a political thread, being as divisive as they can, is good for this site...

We are one of the few(if only) audio forums that allow political discussion cause to date we have demonstrated our ability to keep it cival, yeah one can throw a light hearted ***, but a good discussion can hopefully help all to see things in a clearer light.

With this being said lets continue down this path.

 

[timm]

All I have to say is that when we had a discussion about the loan to the automotive industry some here just figured we should gut it and let it bleed out. Well a lot of that loan has been paid back and I am sure all of it will with interest. So what do we do with this 'company' called the federal government? Seems to me that we have been giving out loans but they still fall behind. And regarding a 2 year pay freeze? My pay has been stagnant for 10 years!! What a joke.

 

[twich54]

My pay has been stagnant for 10 years!! What a joke.

Timm, you must love your job or already make a boat load of $$$.....why else would you stay dormant for ten years ??

 

[timm]

I do ok.

 

[Len44]

Well Len, you can rail against the republicans, I like to curse at them as well sometimes. But do you honestly think the dems have done much better? After all, in that liberal bastion of a state in which you reside, aren't they looking at raising taxes on drinks, gas and cigarettes to cover a huge budget deficit?

OK by me...

Lord help you if you're a 2 pack a day alcholic with a hummer to drive!

Tough. Knock off those bad habits. They hurt the individual and society, what with increased medical costs and burning more gas and a really hellish attitude toward the environment. I mean, does anyone really NEED a hummer?

Embarassed for Kentuckians? At least they will still be paying the same amount for a good glass of bourbon at the local bar, because they have a budget surplus.

WTF? Where do you get this budget surplus stuff? Just google "Kentucky Budget Woes" for some alternative reading that is different from what FOX "Fair & [Un]Balanced News reports.

Also, I think MD is going to raise the tax on millionaires an additional 6%.

OK by me.

The last time MD did that they actually lost tax revenues because 1 of every 3 millionaires left the state.

OK by me.

 

[stuwee]

Feeling the tug of the Event Horizon...

I'm waiting patiently for 12/2012, and I'm looking busy just in case , I suggest everyone else does the same, your call of course :devil:

Melting vinyl on my body is my worst nightmare

 

[Len44]

That's my point... By comparison to the private sector, they aren't! They will still maintain their cost of living increase (not included in the merit freeze by Obama), which is more than most private sector workers will see from a raise and that's IF they get a raise at all. Along with that, they will still get their pension paid for as well as their health care.

I've worked both sides of the fence. I was military, then private sector, then a state employee and now back to private sector. I can tell you, there is a comfortable insulation that comes with a government job that just doesn't resemble the real world. I don't feel sorry for government workers because the way I see it, they are just now getting a glimpse of what the real world has been going through for at least two years now.

I should add, in no way am I grouping any of our armed forces in my comparison.

Couple of thoughts:

1. Geeze, there sure seem to be an awful lot of anger directed at public employees and federal workers in particular (not just in this post). This demonizing of one group of citizens is disappointing and unfortunate. I can't help but wonder if quite a few folks (none on this forum, of course) allow themselves to be whipped into a frenzy by the above-mentioned right-wing extremists (FAR more to the right than Goldwater or Reagan ever imagined -- more like those that Twich mentioned, which would better serve the Country by falling off the edge...) who apparently have a need to pick on (bully) someone, or something.

2. Factually, your comment erred when stating that the COLA adjustment was left intact. In fact, it was not. But, I realize there is an awful lot of misinformation (I must be slipping: some would have said "lies") out there that some include in their constant rants against the federal government and its employees (mostly absent during the years Shrub was Prez).

3. Regarding federal pensions (and health care, for that matter), one has to wonder, if not marvel, regarding where this idea comes from that this is all provided "free" to federal workers. In fact, it is not "free" by any stretch of the imagination. These "benefits" are actually funded by a combination of employee and employer contributions -- much like many private sector situations (go figure).

4. Thanks for (apparently) not begrudging my military retired pay -- which, BTW, is also partially funded by military members through an (admittedly arcane) suppressed level of active duty pay.

5. I still remember the astonishment -- and bitterness -- I felt during the Gerald Ford / Alan Greenspan (back when he was considered "The Village Idiot") years when they decided to balance the budget on the backs of the military by freezing our pay. Really appreciated when Reagan came in and fixed the problem. As now, it was all just a cheap, shallow, meaningless political stunt that did little to actually solve the real fundamental budgetary problems.

 

[Rich]

That's my point... By comparison to the private sector, they aren't! They will still maintain their cost of living increase (not included in the merit freeze by Obama), which is more than most private sector workers will see from a raise and that's IF they get a raise at all. Along with that, they will still get their pension paid for as well as their health care.

Well, that's just a swell reason to inflict some pain on them. How dare they work their cushy jobs, accepting all those benefits, while the rest of the country suffers! They deserve to share all the pain too. Let's just lay off half the government workers, and see how that works, shall we?

I should add, in no way am I grouping any of our armed forces in my comparison.

And why is that? These guys aren't feeling the pain of the recession either, are they? They haven't had to endure any layoffs. In fact, Bush and Co. ensured they would have steady work for years! Why should they be spared the pain of the recession? According to your logic, we should all share in that pain equally.

My point is that it is a lot easier to demonize a group of people than it is to come up with rational, workable solutions to very complex problems.

 

[97ChameleonTA]

1. Geeze, there sure seem to be an awful lot of anger directed at public employees and federal workers in particular (not just in this post). This demonizing of one group of citizens is disappointing and unfortunate. I can't help but wonder if quite a few folks (none on this forum, of course) allow themselves to be whipped into a frenzy by the above-mentioned right-wing extremists (FAR more to the right than Goldwater or Reagan ever imagined -- more like those that Twich mentioned, which would better serve the Country by falling off the edge...) who apparently have a need to pick on (bully) someone, or something.

I carry no anger directed towards any government employees. I'm merely stating that they have enjoyed an insulating buffer for some time now that the private sector hasn't. I don't feel sympathy for them for finally being introduced to the real impact of our economy. I don't listen to political hacks or pundits reqardless of which side of the fence they sit on. I make my own observations.

2. Factually, your comment erred when stating that the COLA adjustment was left intact. In fact, it was not. But, I realize there is an awful lot of misinformation (I must be slipping: some would have said "lies") out there that some include in their constant rants against the federal government and its employees (mostly absent during the years Shrub was Prez).

Actually no, I was correct in my statement. There will be no COLA for FY2011 due to the CPI not showing a measurable rise. Had it gone up, there would have been a cost of living increase.

3. Regarding federal pensions (and health care, for that matter), one has to wonder, if not marvel, regarding where this idea comes from that this is all provided "free" to federal workers. In fact, it is not "free" by any stretch of the imagination. These "benefits" are actually funded by a combination of employee and employer contributions -- much like many private sector situations (go figure).

I should have been more clear. My comment was aimed more at government workers as a whole. Many state, county and city government employees, including Florida, pay nothing for their health benefits or pension plans. I find that ridiculous and irresponsible on the part of both the government and unions that fought for it.

4. Thanks for (apparently) not begrudging my military retired pay -- which, BTW, is also partially funded by military members through an (admittedly arcane) suppressed level of active duty pay.

I'd never talk down to any US military benefits or pensions. I believe that our armed forces are underpaid for the amount of time, blood, sweat and tears they endure throughout their careers. I'm ex-Navy myself.

5. I still remember the astonishment -- and bitterness -- I felt during the Gerald Ford / Alan Greenspan (back when he was considered "The Village Idiot") years when they decided to balance the budget on the backs of the military by freezing our pay. Really appreciated when Reagan came in and fixed the problem. As now, it was all just a cheap, shallow, meaningless political stunt that did little to actually solve the real fundamental budgetary problems.

We are in complete agreement there.

 

[97ChameleonTA]

Well, that's just a swell reason to inflict some pain on them. How dare they work their cushy jobs, accepting all those benefits, while the rest of the country suffers! They deserve to share all the pain too. Let's just lay off half the government workers, and see how that works, shall we?

Okay, i'll flip that coin with you. Can you give me an honest reason why they shouldn't be included in the pain that the rest of the country is going through? I mean really, the government isn't exactly a successful business that can afford to handsomely reward it's employees because of their high profit margins, is it? Lets not forget where government workers salaries come from.

And why is that? These guys aren't feeling the pain of the recession either, are they? They haven't had to endure any layoffs. In fact, Bush and Co. ensured they would have steady work for years! Why should they be spared the pain of the recession? According to your logic, we should all share in that pain equally.

They may not be feeling the pain of the recession directly, although that can be argued, but they are affected by it. And I feel that a good majority of our armed forces are feeling a pain that no civilian could ever understand. And most importantly, they aren't out crabbing and whining or even protesting about having to give a little. They are out there quietly protecting those peoples right to do so.

My point is that it is a lot easier to demonize a group of people than it is to come up with rational, workable solutions to very complex problems.

Again, i'm not "demonizing" anyone or "angry" at all. Funny how the extreme definitions keep coming up for anyone with an opposing view of the liberal contingent here. Personally, I see the pay freeze as a shallow gesture in solving our countries financial woes. But that doesn't mean I don't support it because every little bit helps. The easy, rational, workable solution to this complex problem is simple. Quit spending money you don't have...

 

[Kevin]

Hi Kevin,

Been on vacation so my first foray into this thread.

First off, I think all members have done an outstanding job of keeping the discussion civil. One comment on your last paragraph and accuracy of facts.

This is not meant to be R v D but one recent example caught my attention.

When the President was on his last overseas trip to try to drum up support for American products, Ms. McConnel (tea party elect / hope I got the name right), went on the air to announce, based on some apparent blogger in India I believe, that the President's trip, including the various staff and press that accompanied, was costing taxpayers $200,000,000 per day. I assume she held the new conference to make the American people aware of excess spending on the part of the current Administration. Apparently that's all Mr. Limbaugh needed to justify stating the same thing on his radio talk show. Of course, the "apparent fact" seemed to be based on Ms. McConnel's press conference statement.

After some research by the press, the number turned out to be totally unfounded and bogus.

Also needless to say, neither of those individuals apologized for the URRRRR misstatement.

GG

PS: Dave, I have the answer to your question regarding who hired that person in the video.

Same one who hired Dan Brown, who was the head of FEMA, when Katrina happened.

Hey Gordon-

I think that basically you have kind of made my point. It's why I base 90% my views on my own commonsense, my own experience, own beliefs, and personal feelings of fairness, right and wrong - not on the views of some TV or radio personality. Rush did mess up that fact. Dan Rather was wrong in running a story on Bush's military service based upon documents in which he was warned that could possibly have been forged. Rachel Maddow recently ran a story against Sarah Palin based upon a website that deals with satire, she thought the story was real. They're 'all' are too quick to jump on a story in playing the gotcha game. This is why I don't use them or attack them in political discussions, I think for myself and I guess I would hope that others do as well.

By the way, I sure am envious of that gorgeous countryside you get to call home. I took my family on a vacation to view some the National Parks out west last year, and Jackson Hole was one of our stops. We sure fell in love with area.

 

[Kevin]

WTF? Where do you get this budget surplus stuff? Just google "Kentucky Budget Woes" for some alternative reading that is different from what FOX "Fair & [Un]Balanced News reports.

This is what I had read, perhaps it is wrong.

***FRANKFORT, Ky. (AP) - Kentucky's top budget official says the state closed the books on the fiscal year 2009-2010 with a $29.7 million surplus.***

It sounds as though they are projecting a surplus for 2011 as well. If you google 'Virginia budget woes', you'll come up with a bunch of articles as well, but I'm pretty sure Virginia ended with a surplus. I think all states are hurting right now, but some are fairing better than others. If you google, states with largest 'budget woes', I think you'll find that the greater majority lean heavily democratic. Perhaps just a coincidence.

 

[timm]

hahaha.... Well I guess you will get some responses on that one re: the states that 'lean heavily democratic' !!! everyone is having budget woes - whether it is because of the lack of tax revenue from the housing that has plummeted or if it is from manufacturing that is either going somewhere else - or just getting scaled back. I'm surprised anyone has a surplus - but, I am sure there are circumstances where the housing market did not get hit that bad or there was job growth.