Vista

[Nikos]

ok Vantage is out of price range.
even with Vista I will have to listen from a HT receiver or something cheap for a while.
I think most of you agree that Purity are in a different (lower) sound level than Vista.
great forum thanks
now I have to convince my wife.
I hope I will find a pair in black and she will not (initially) see the difference...

 

[twich54]

I hope I will find a pair in black and she will not (initially) see the difference...

I love it ! the 'ole "hide and seek switcheroo" !! how well I know !!

 

[miljac]

Nikos,

I had a good sounding ML (Ascent) before I discovered the magic of bi-amping. Now, paired with a 2x40W tube amp on panels and 2x200W SS on bass this loudspeaker gives (even today) much more expensive setups a run for their money. I believe Vistas should be capable of similar achievement. On the bright side, *you* choose which amp will power the bass.

Kali nichta

 

[Nikos]

Nikos,

I had a good sounding ML (Ascent) before I discovered the magic of bi-amping. Now, paired with a 2x40W tube amp on panels and 2x200W SS on bass this loudspeaker gives (even today) much more expensive setups a run for their money. I believe Vistas should be capable of similar achievement. On the bright side, *you* choose which amp will power the bass.

Kali nichta

I had the impression so far that I have to use two identical amps for bi-amping.
thinking about the way Vantage/summit are working I can now see that I can use (as your suggestion) a ss amp for woofer and a tube for panels.
great thanks

ok now. any help with the wife?

edit.. guten nacht maine liblieche friend.

 

[eknuds01]

have you owned both???? the difference is not that big I do not think

Nikos said it is out of his price range anyway so why keep recomending it?

No - I haven't owned both and in the OP he didn't list his budget restriction (though maybe that could be inferred).

In my [limited] experience, I feel the Vantage is a solid performer and it is indeed a better speaker. Whether it is worth the extra money is a choice/observation that is up only to the listener.

Rich and Dave provided some excellent advice - a good sub and/or biamping could do wonders.

You can't go wrong with the Vista - surely it is a step up from what he has now.

Erik

 

[FISH_MAN]

that's what I am trying to find out.
is it a big jump in vocals going from Purity to Vista?
if the answer is "YES" then I will stretch my budget and I will go for Vista.
I need an amp as well so I can not go to Vantage.
thanks
Nikos

he said it here on page 1

 

[eknuds01]

oops. My bad, read that too quickly.

 

[Dreamer]

There are a couple things I'd like to weigh in on with regards to this discussion. First, there is a BIG difference between the Purity (or any of the "Design" line) and the ESL line speakers. Although the Purity is a nice speaker, it's not a Vista or Vantage. You will find the soundstage is a LOT bigger (wider, deeper, AND higher) with the ESL-series speakers. Second, depending on the amplifier you are using, you will also find that the mids are a lot more fluid and natural and the bass is a lot more tight and realistic with the ESL series.

I think the Vista gets short-changed by a lot of people because of how they hear it. Many dealers view the Vista as the "budget" speaker in the ESL line, and therefore set it up with low-powered amps or even receivers, but they have the Vantage (and of course the Summit) powered with top-notch amps and components.

I've heard the Vista driven by proper amplifiers (Krell, Bryston, Sunfire, and ARC) and actually I think they can be, with the right amp/cable combination, on some music, better in the bass range than the Vantage. The main selling point for the Vantage and the Summit are that they have powered woofers--personally I think this is a weakness. The Vista is a passive speaker--it has no on-board amps, and it is bi-amp-able, so you can hook proper amplifiers to the woofer posts and they actually DO something. When you bi-amp the Vantage or Summit, the on-board circuitry takes that speaker-level power and turns it to line-level, then amplifies it with the on-board amp, so no matter WHAT amplifier you are using with a Vantage or Summit, the woofer is ALWAYS going to be really driven by the on-board amp. Some folks mat find this is a good thing--ESPECIALLY is SAF is a big issue, or they are at a premium for rack space for amplifiers, but personally, the way I see it is that if someone has enough balls to buy speakers that cost $7k-$10k, they should have enough balls to over-ride any SAF-related objections to a stack of proper amplifiers in your system.

Anyway, I think in many ways the Vista is actually a better deal than the Vantage, for the very reason that it DOES NOT have on-board amps--it is more versatile, and can be more easily tailored to your own listening habits and bass demands, ESPECIALLY if you like your low-end a little on the "punchy" side. The Vantage is a "smoother" speaker than the Vista, but I think that with the proper amplifiers, the Vista can actually be a real sleeper. You just need to throw a LOT of current at it, like a Sunfire or Sanders amp.

All that said, I STILL think that the new Martin Logan ESLs don't throw the same expansive soundstage as the older models, ESPECIALLY when it comes to the height of the sound. Sliding the panel down to be less than 60" high seems to REALLY have really sacrificed a lot of soundstage height, all for a tiny increase in SAF. Sure the new ML's look a LOT more cool than the older models--slimmer and a lot more sexy, but I still think that the Summit sounds a LOT smaller than the Prodigy, and sounds practically TINY compared to well-tset-up Monoliths or Statements...

I'm sure there will be a LOT of people on here that disagree with me on this, but this is what my ears have told me, based on listening to a LOT of different systems with a lot of different music.

 

[FISH_MAN]

Well said Dreamer !

 

[eknuds01]

Rich!!

Nice post...where ya been, buddy>|??????????

 

[Dreamer]

"eknuds",

Yeah, I've been off this forum for a while. We are in the process of moving again (from Fayetteville NC to Washington NC), and I've applied to ECU to try and get my MAsters Degree next year. Things are sort of up in the air right now--as we are moving in a slow and incremental way. My system is mostly in boxes, with just a VERY bare-bones setup (no MLs) here in Washington until we make the final move next weekend.

I miss my Martin Logans, and will probably be completely reconfiguring my system in the new house. Our living room is much smaller, so it looks like I'm going to downsize the HT setup, and use my Scenarios as the main speakers, keep the Logos as center, and use my Celestions or Minimus 7's as rears.

The Sequels (and the Carver Silver 7t's) will probably go upstairs in the "guest room" (which will double as a dedicated listening room) to anchor a dedicated 2-channel rig. I'm seriously considering selling the Sequels though, and upgrading to Vistas or Vantages, bu tthat is going to depend on the economy, and my job situation in the nest few months...

Updated pics will be posted soon.

 

[gordonmenninger]

I think it depends what kind of bass you are looking for. If you are one of those audiophile purists that only listen to classical or chamber, etc.. music with little bass and are mostly concerned that you area able to hear the sound of the trumpet layered on top of the french horn, etc then you may not need the sub and should just get the better ML main speaker.

From my one year experience of ownership, my SL3 in my basement theater has almost no bass whatsoever in my room and a big 18" sub is a necessity in my eyes to make the sound complete. Fat, deep bass notes are the foundation of most music these days and if your speakers cannot reproduce them, then you are missing half of the fun!

Physics proves that you just cannot get alot of authoritative bass out of a tiny 8 or 10" driver. My ears have told me the same thing!

gordon

 

[Dreamer]

I think it depends what kind of bass you are looking for. If you are one of those audiophile purists that only listen to classical or chamber, etc.. music with little bass and are mostly concerned that you area able to hear the sound of the trumpet layered on top of the french horn, etc then you may not need the sub and should just get the better ML main speaker.

That's an interesting generalization...

One of my "benchmark" recordings for clean, clear, musical bass response is a "purist" recording of a the Brodsky Quartet playing Beethoven String Quartet chamber music (End Games, on Teldec, 1989). The bass violin on that recording is the closest thing to hearing it live that I've ever heard on a recording. It has that subtle, slightly disturbing subsonic viceral gut-jiggling depth and authority that a lot of other recordings of string quartets just completely lack. I've actually had dealers tell me that is must be boosted in the lower registers, but it's really a "purist" recording. I've heard a LOT of live string quartets, and this particular recording sounds pretty darn real to me...

From my one year experience of ownership, my SL3 in my basement theater has almost no bass whatsoever in my room and a big 18" sub is a necessity in my eyes to make the sound complete.

I've had exactly the opposite problem with my "original" Sequels in a basement HT--TOO MUCH bass. It took a lot of repositioning of the speakers and seating AND the addition of a fair amount of creative acoustic treatments to tame the bass-reinforcing acoustics of that particular room.

I'd venture to say, Gordon, that it's not your SL3's that are slim in the bass region--it's your room that is somehow sucking the bass out of the air via weird acoustical conditions. I've never had a problem getting window-shaking bass from my Sequels--in fact, when I first got them, I actually knocked a few pictures of the walls of our townhouse livingroom when I played a newly-purchased copy of the Telarc DDD release of Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture by Kunzel in 2000.

But I will admit, when I put together my 5.1 system, I did ad a 15" Velodyne subwoofer to the mix, to get that sort of gut-wrenching slam that is required by a lot of the new DVDs. :eek1:

But for most music, I have never found that the Sequel line (or comparable models from later lines of ML's) really required a sub for authoritative bass, unless you're listening to a LOT of Led Zeppelin or something like that...

--Richard

 

[OneLiterPeter]

There are a couple things I'd like to weigh in on with regards to this discussion. First, there is a BIG difference between the Purity (or any of the "Design" line) and the ESL line speakers. Although the Purity is a nice speaker, it's not a Vista or Vantage. You will find the soundstage is a LOT bigger (wider, deeper, AND higher) with the ESL-series speakers. Second, depending on the amplifier you are using, you will also find that the mids are a lot more fluid and natural and the bass is a lot more tight and realistic with the ESL series.

I think the Vista gets short-changed by a lot of people because of how they hear it. Many dealers view the Vista as the "budget" speaker in the ESL line, and therefore set it up with low-powered amps or even receivers, but they have the Vantage (and of course the Summit) powered with top-notch amps and components.

I've heard the Vista driven by proper amplifiers (Krell, Bryston, Sunfire, and ARC) and actually I think they can be, with the right amp/cable combination, on some music, better in the bass range than the Vantage. The main selling point for the Vantage and the Summit are that they have powered woofers--personally I think this is a weakness. The Vista is a passive speaker--it has no on-board amps, and it is bi-amp-able, so you can hook proper amplifiers to the woofer posts and they actually DO something. When you bi-amp the Vantage or Summit, the on-board circuitry takes that speaker-level power and turns it to line-level, then amplifies it with the on-board amp, so no matter WHAT amplifier you are using with a Vantage or Summit, the woofer is ALWAYS going to be really driven by the on-board amp. Some folks mat find this is a good thing--ESPECIALLY is SAF is a big issue, or they are at a premium for rack space for amplifiers, but personally, the way I see it is that if someone has enough balls to buy speakers that cost $7k-$10k, they should have enough balls to over-ride any SAF-related objections to a stack of proper amplifiers in your system.

Anyway, I think in many ways the Vista is actually a better deal than the Vantage, for the very reason that it DOES NOT have on-board amps--it is more versatile, and can be more easily tailored to your own listening habits and bass demands, ESPECIALLY if you like your low-end a little on the "punchy" side. The Vantage is a "smoother" speaker than the Vista, but I think that with the proper amplifiers, the Vista can actually be a real sleeper. You just need to throw a LOT of current at it, like a Sunfire or Sanders amp.

All that said, I STILL think that the new Martin Logan ESLs don't throw the same expansive soundstage as the older models, ESPECIALLY when it comes to the height of the sound. Sliding the panel down to be less than 60" high seems to REALLY have really sacrificed a lot of soundstage height, all for a tiny increase in SAF. Sure the new ML's look a LOT more cool than the older models--slimmer and a lot more sexy, but I still think that the Summit sounds a LOT smaller than the Prodigy, and sounds practically TINY compared to well-tset-up Monoliths or Statements...

I'm sure there will be a LOT of people on here that disagree with me on this, but this is what my ears have told me, based on listening to a LOT of different systems with a lot of different music.

Excellent post Dreamer! :rocker:

I've had the Sources which IMO are the closest to the Purities. I now have Vista's and yes... there is a very big difference between the two. I did find that I needed a powerful amp to drive them to their full potential though. One comment I make to a friend of mine was... "Now I know why ML adds amplifiers to their speakers".

 

[crusty]

Vista and Vantage

Interesting discussion. In regards to Nikos' original question, I too am listening to the Vistas. I auditioned the Vantage and Vistas extensively, both set up by the same sales person, over a two day period using Cambridge Audio 840C CDP, and 840 A integrated. I had read that the Vantage were the better speakers so I spent most of my time with them, because I was seriously considering them. Unfortunately, however hard I tried (and I really tried because I really wanted to like them), I could not "get into" the music when listening through them. I noted a suckout in the midbass to upper bass where the power of symphonic orchestras are produced, as well as some piercing steeliness on top. Out of curiousity, I then asked the saleperson to hook up the Vistas. Instantly, I felt an "ahhhh" feeling come over me and enjoyed the music. The bass filled in, and the treble was smoothly portrayed. The sound was "bigger" and filled the room. Playing symphonic music made me want to get up and "air conduct". Simply put, I was moved by the music. The Vistas were warm and inviting, musical, and natural. It came together as a whole, which I didn't get from the Vantage. I thought that these were the speakers I should've started off listening to and spend most of my time with.
I know that many listeners have quite different findings between the two.
I'm not sure why this is the case. Perhaps it is the lack of synergy between the Cambridge Audio Amp and the internal bass amp of the Vantage and its panel. Perhaps Cambridge Audio are not good matches for the Vantage but worked for the Vista.

I do like the idea of being able to choose the electronics driving the speaker (both woofer and panel) afforded by the Vista. The electronics upgrade path is more versatile. The TAS review mentioned a lack of power in the upper bass to midrange region. So far, I have not found this to be the case. I don't think it needs any more output in this region, otherwise it might tend towards bloating.

Just one listener's opinion (and ears)... Please audition for yourself if possible.

Good Luck and Happy Listening!

 

[Nikos]

Excellent post Dreamer! :rocker:

I've had the Sources which IMO are the closest to the Purities. I now have Vista's and yes... there is a very big difference between the two. I did find that I needed a powerful amp to drive them to full potential though. One comment I make to a friend of mine was... "Now I know why ML adds amplifiers to their speakers".

thanks a lot, very useful comparison...

 

[Nikos]

Dreamer and Crusty you where very helpful.
thank you all