Upgrading to summits?

[discocarp]

Thanks for all the help! I'm both better informed and more confused than ever. Its a good thing though!

I'm intrigued by the tubes, but I think its just not the right situation for me to get them right now. Krell it will be!

Lets narrow the discussion a bit. If I want to go with one of the stereo FPB models (300cx, 400cx, or 700cx), what would I notice as the difference between the 3? Is it just volume? Or is it quality too? Are any of these models under/over powered for the summits?

 

[HsvToolFool]

Lets narrow the discussion a bit. If I want to go with one of the stereo FPB models (300cx, 400cx, or 700cx)...

Holy cow! I didn't know your budget was in that arena.
That's a whole 'nother ball game. At that level of performance
you can expect smoothness of the best tubes. Likewise, the
best tubed gear from ARC and BAT has the detail and
resolution of the best SS gear.

Unfortunately, I've read rumors (and don't quote me on it)
that the FPB line is discontinued for 2007. It's still on their
web site, so I don't know. The new Evolution series replaces
their "Class A" models. The Evo402 is the equivalent of
the 400cx. No reviews yet to help while buying process,
of course. But I wouldn't be scared to buy them blind (or
deaf, in this case). The EvoOne looks especially yummy.

"If I haaaad a million dollarrrs..."

If the Evolution amps are a big hit with reviewers (like the
FPB) and you buy early when the prices are lowest, then
you can definitely get your investment back later selling
them used.

... what would I notice as the difference between the 3?

Probably not much (if anything) because the Summit has
a self-powered woofer. No bass to drive. Any of those models
will amply drive the stat panel to high SPL with no clipping
or distortion.

Just be prepared to install a dedicated 20A circuit to get
the best performance. But that's true for any large amp.

Is it just volume? Or is it quality too?

No. They're basically the same amp with more parts to
get higher ratings.

Are any of these models under/over powered for the summits?

They're all fine.

 

[discocarp]

Thanks for the insight. I probably should have been more clear on the budget up front. I am willing to spend $5k on the amp as long as I'm not likely to replace it. I can get the krell stuff for 50% off, so that gets me to the $10k retail range for krell stuff. The retail for the fpb's were all under $10k I think. Maybe not the 700.. Any idea what the retail is on the evo402?

EDIT: Just checked, the 400 retail is $12k (according to audiogon) which is a little over budget, but still within my means.

 

[Rich]

I agree with Brian. Any of these three Krell amps should work great with the Summits. What the extra power gives you is a little more headroom for the transients and the high frequency peaks. In other words, the cymbal crashing may be a little more clear and realistic, especially at high SPLs. Same thing with the attack of a hard struck piano note or guitar chord. Headroom is always good, but I think all of these amps will have sufficient headroom for the Summits. For the majority of your listening, you may not notice that much difference between them.

If Brian is right and these amps are discontinued soon, you might get an even better deal on them with your discount on top of a discontinued product markdown. Just a thought. You should also do some research and find out what advantages, if any, the Evolution series brings to the table. It may or may not be worth it to buy the "latest greatest" in this situation.

One advantage of going with the 300 cx or 400 cx, is you may be able to save some money, which could be put toward a good tube preamp. The Krell amp gives you power, control, and resolution. A good tube preamp could add some slight warmth and liquidity to the mix to give you an overall pleasing sound. There are many on this forum who have found that Class A solid state amplification mixed with the right tube preamp is a prescription for sonic bliss. Just ask Joey.

The tricky part there is finding the right tube preamp that has good synergy together with the Krell and the Summits. I doubt that would be too hard. It is also an upgrade path you can do any time in the future. For now, you may want to concentrate on getting the best Krell amp you can afford.

My offhand recommendation is to go for the 400 cx. It has more headroom than the 300 but is not overkill like the 700 probably is. Having said that, I can't imagine you wouldn't be perfectly happy with the 300. Ultimately, the choice is yours and you should try to audition several choices if you can.

 

[jjqiv]

HI jjqiv,
You are generalizing. Have you ever spent time with Audio Research products, especially more modern than the SP-10 era (mid 1980's)? I think not. ARC is not stereotypical tube sound as you imply. In fact, I have referred to them as tubed Krell but better.

In truth, I love the ARC sound. And I like Krell as well. I also own Krell products where they are used in my bedroom HT system. The sound I am after is one without signature but with great subtlety and outstanding resolution. ARC offers all these things in spades. Better than Krell or any other solid state products I have heard. Neutrality is my goal.

It's generalizations like yours that drives me nuts. I love tubes but not the tubes to which you refer. Please try to be a little wiser or more specific when you pronounce statements of fact. Your post is flat misleading.

Sparky

Have to agree with you that AR Tube amps fall into SS end of sound camp. They do not have the typical tube characteristics. I don't care for them. I would not recomment them. However, I would recommend the AR pre-amps....

I stick by my assessment. If you generaly like the sound of tube amps (e.g., Airtight, BAT, CJ, SF, etc.) you probably would not care for a Krell.

 

[karma]

Have to agree with you that AR Tube amps fall into SS end of sound camp. They do not have the typical tube characteristics. I don't care for them. I would not recomment them. However, I would recommend the AR pre-amps....

I stick by my assessment. If you generaly like the sound of tube amps (e.g., Airtight, BAT, CJ, SF, etc.) you probably would not care for a Krell.

HI jjqiv,
OK, we are getting somewhere. So, now you are removing ARC from your tube sound generalization. Good. Now we are talking about taste. I won't quibble with your tastes. But your generalization falls apart. That was the point I was making. I'm happy you agree.

BTW, modern ARC preamps and power amps are cut from a single sonic cloth. They work best together. And I would recommend them though they, like any other fine piece, will not appeal to everybody. They do appeal to me as does Krell but I prefer the ARC sound. I am willing to agree to disagree. Our sonic goals are obviously different which is fine as long as we acknowledge the differences. We are talking about taste and not necessarily about quality.

Sparky

 

[Kenscollick]

It seems that you are leaning toward the Krell amps, I am completely satisfied with my last 4 krell amps. i had a 300c before replacing it with a 400cx and there is no way i can recommend the 300c the cx is head and shoulders above the previous design. as I suspect that the 402 evo will be in comparison to the cx line. I heard the 402 in vegas at the krell suite and was very impressed. As far as pre amps go { I do not have one} but personally would not go with a tubed pre. they all will pass DC that and you will have to modify the Krell to block it. IMO tubes are constantly changing you are breaking them in for a period of time then you have a couple of weeks they sound great then slowly die. During my journy through tubed components I was always amazed at how much better they sounded after a tube change.

Our quest is for reproducing live music not to find a warm or anylitical but an accurate system.

 

[karma]

..... but personally would not go with a tubed pre. they all will pass DC that and you will have to modify the Krell to block it. IMO tubes are constantly changing you are breaking them in for a period of time then you have a couple of weeks they sound great then slowly die.
Our quest is for reproducing live music not to find a warm or anylitical but an accurate system.

HI Ken,
Are you qualified to make the DC statement above? Under failure conditions, all preamps can pass DC. This not limited to tubes or solid state. And I would be willing to bet that all Krell power amps have an input mechanism (probably a capacitor) to block DC in case of failure. Don't know that for sure but every power amp I know of does. It would be crazy not to. But I don't have a schematic of my Krell's so I can't be definitive. I have fixed hundreds (no exageration) of power amps and have seen zero exceptions.

As for tube life, you exagerate. After tubes are run in (perhaps 50 hours) they settle into a long period of stability before they fade into old age. Preamp tubes especially, have a long, happy life. Where are you getting your information? Certainly not through personal experience. 10,000 hours is not unusual for preamp tubes.

I strongly agree with your last statement about accuracy. Spoken like a true Krell lover. Me too. But I prefer the ARC sound, the Krell of tube amps.

Sparky

 

[Spike]

For $5k budget, there are lots of choices solid-state amplifiers:

1. Pass Labs X150.5
2. BAT vk220 w/ BAT-PAK option
3. BAT vk250
4. Plinius Audio
5. Monarchy Audio hybrids

I'd pick the Pass X150.5 as my first choice of solid-state amplifier. The Summits panels are fairly efficient so you don't need lots of power to drive them. Contrary to the statement made in one of the previous post: "They're basically the same amp with more parts to get higher ratings.", you should think of it along the another angle where there are lots more devices to deviate from the original signal. Remember that each amplifying device (tube or solid-state) works by making a copy before throwing away the original signal. It's the resulting copy (of the signal) that makes its way to the next stage of your signal chain, not the original signal! Given that you're eyeing the Summits, I'd suggest that you first figure out how much power you really need and get the most musical amplifier for that power rating. Don't fall into the power-rating trap, going for the big powerhouse amplifier. If you're not using the extra power, why keep them there just so that you can have some "headroom" when the conversation comes up, at the cost of having these extra components/devices in the signal chain to degrade the original signal. That does not make any sense in my book! So, "keeping things as simple as you can, but no simpler" is the motto I go by when looking for components. I've listened to several Summit systems already, ranging from 25w SET tube amp (very high quality) to 300wpc solid-state powerhouse and I was more impressed with the 25w amp than the 200+ wpc monster. The most balanced amplifier I've heard driving the Summits to-date were the 50-watt Cary 805 Anniverary tube amps. IMHO, the Summits deserve (and demands) the best quality upstream electronics. They will ruthlessly expose any weakness of the upstream electronics if you're not paying attention to system synergy.

Good luck with your system,
Spike

 

[IWalker]

You can likely get something lightly used for close to half price as well...so I wouldn't necessarily go straight for the krell stuff.

I'd go with a class A SS amp (I'm borrowing a 30w class A pass labs, and it sounds incredible). Plinius is a good brand to look at for that...SA102 or 103 would work great. (I think joey has one?) Don't have a ton of experience with equipment, but class A SS seems to have the best of both worlds...and if you want more tube sound, get a tube pre.

Heard good things about BelCanto Evo2 amps too...
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue14/evo2.htm

 

[Joey_V]

At half off, I would go as high up in the Krell line as possible. Mostly the FPB or the Evos. Nothing would trounce a 50% off deal, atleast for me, I wouldnt care if for used if I could get brand spanking new for 50% off retail. That's a large incentive to go Krell.

Mate a Krell with the best Krell preamp you can get (go CAST even) and you're done.

At a later date, try mating a tube preamp like the ARC Ref3 or the Cary 05 with the big Krell amp you got and see if you want to sell the Krell pre you got and get the ARC or Cary (or whichever else) used.

It's a win win. My honest opinion?

You're in a very good position here... go Krell. You have nothing to lose as even selling that for used would GAIN you money!!!



Joey

PS
I do have the Plinius and I mucho love it!

 

[Chuck Lee]

upgrading to Summits

At half price,I would go for a whole Krell System with good cables and power conditioning.Buy the best you can once and forget about it.Buy separates,mono amps,pre and cd(sacd).
I don't think you need the sub,buy a decent source.
You have the opportunity to fly first class for a 50% fare.Take advantage of it.

 

[Spike]

Joey's on to something...

You're in a very good position here... go Krell. You have nothing to lose as even selling that for used would GAIN you money!!!

At 50% off, buy the biggest, baddest Krell separates, the works! Turn around and sell them a year from now and make $$$$. Who knows, the gain realized from the Krells may be enough to finance another system of your preference, tube or otherwise! Ah, the essence of...Joeyitis!

Spike

 

[discocarp]

We're getting close to deciding, and I think its the evolution line. Its over budget but we want to do this right even if we wait just a bit longer.

I have one question though. If we went with an evo402 stereo amp and evo202 preamp, would we have the ability to upgrade this to at least a 5.1 in the future by adding pieces rather than replacing them? We have no immediate plans to go in this direction, but since we've started talking about this I keep looking at my beloved clarities and seeing rears.

 

[jjqiv]

At half off, I would go as high up in the Krell line as possible. Mostly the FPB or the Evos. Nothing would trounce a 50% off deal, atleast for me, I wouldnt care if for used if I could get brand spanking new for 50% off retail. That's a large incentive to go Krell.

Mate a Krell with the best Krell preamp you can get (go CAST even) and you're done.

At a later date, try mating a tube preamp like the ARC Ref3 or the Cary 05 with the big Krell amp you got and see if you want to sell the Krell pre you got and get the ARC or Cary (or whichever else) used.

It's a win win. My honest opinion?

You're in a very good position here... go Krell. You have nothing to lose as even selling that for used would GAIN you money!!!



Joey

PS
I do have the Plinius and I mucho love it!

Rather than the "biggest" and "baddest", I would go for the one that's "sized just right" and sounds the "best" (i.e., the most musical). Unless appearances are more important than the sound. You don't need a monster to drive a Summit. I've heard Krell most musical amp was a Class A 50 watter.

You have nothing to lose as even selling that for used would GAIN you money!!!

Well, you have time that can be lost. You can't buy it back.

 

[HsvToolFool]

For $5k budget, there are lots of choices solid-state

amplifiers:

I'm throwing an "Apples And Oranges" flag. Perhaps
you initially didn't see his "50% off Krell" qualifier.

The amps you listed are all very nice, but they aren't
in the same league as an FPB 300cx (or BAT VK-600, or
Pass X350.5, etc). You're comparing retail $5K amps
against retail $10K amps. $5K amps do not perform at
the level of $10K amps, not even within the same brand.
Krells are not "overpriced" any more than Levinson, BAT,
Pass, ARC, etc.

My earlier comment regarding "more parts" was of course
a simplification of the differences between the FPB 300,
600, etc. Big watts are important for difficult loads like
stat panels, but you're also paying for greater refinement.
The higher level of performance in the $10K arena is subtle,
and that last bit of realism isn't worth the cost to most
people, but it's there.

In this case, the only reason NOT to go with half
price Krell is if A) the Summits would waste the amp's
capability or B) he dislikes neautrality and hearing
extreme detail and nuances. Now, we all know the
answer to "A" and I highly doubt "B" will be an issue.

 

[Joey_V]

How about this:

I honestly think people are making this out to be much more difficult that it should be. Buy the Krell at 50% off... then try it. If you dont like it, sell it, make some money and get whichever you want used?

Some can argue it's time wasted... but others will see the glass half full and chalk it up to added experience. Get the Krell, sell it for a profit if you dont like it. I'm sure there are many out there who'd be willing to pay 60-70% of retail for a near brand new piece of Krell.

 

[Spike]

I'm throwing an "Apples And Oranges" flag. Perhaps you initially didn't see his "50% off Krell" qualifier.
The amps you listed are all very nice, but they aren't in the same league as an FPB 300cx (or BAT VK-600, or Pass X350.5, etc).

I saw the "50% off Krell" qualifier, hence the $5k budget, otherwise, the full budget would be at least $10k and I would quote components in that price range. I purposely listed amplifiers in the 150 watt range to keep the part counts to the minimum, thereby trying to preserve the original signal. Notice that the amplifiers listed are of 2-gain stage (class-A) design, versus multi-stage designs of other amplifiers.

You're comparing retail $5K amps against retail $10K amps. $5K amps do not perform at the level of $10K amps, not even within the same brand. Krells are not "overpriced" any more than Levinson, BAT, Pass, ARC, etc.

This is a matter of preference and I'll just leave it at that. See my previous comment about wanting to like Krell... (one of my earlier posts in this thread)

Big watts are important for difficult loads like stat panels, but you're also paying for greater refinement.

Big watts are NOT important for the load presented by the stat panels. The stat panel present a difficult load to the amplifier but in a different way. Please see my previous post on this subject Tubes and Logans...

In this case, the only reason NOT to go with half price Krell is if A) the Summits would waste the amp's capability or B) he dislikes neautrality and hearing extreme detail and nuances. Now, we all know the answer to "A" and I highly doubt "B" will be an issue.

The Summit is rated at 91db efficiency, with a much improved X-Stat panels, and an internal amplifier driving the bass. There is no reason for monster powerhouse which is the hallmark of the Krell FPB series. Let's see, the 'baby' in the FPB series weighs in at a whopping 300wpc! That's WAY overkill for driving just the panels alone. So, yes, the Summits will waste the amp's capability!

Spike

 

[HsvToolFool]

I have one question though. If we went with an evo402 stereo amp and evo202 preamp, would we have the ability to upgrade this to at least a 5.1 in the future by adding pieces rather than replacing them?

All Krell preamps now have a "Theater Mode" bypass feature
which does what you want. Other high-end preamps probably
do this too nowadays.

Krell assumes you're using separate amps, of course. You
can't feed a mid-fi HT receiver's speaker output through a
preamp. Only line-level signals are allowed, but most HT
receivers also provide line-level outputs for at least the
center, left, and right channels.

The center, left-rear, and right-rear channels are fed straight
into separate amp(s) like normal. The left/right channel
outputs from your HT preamp/processor are fed to an input
on the evo202. This input is then designated as a special
HT input using the evo202 remote control. Any time you
use the HT pre/pro, switch the evo202 to the HT input.
This disables the volume control so that the left/right HT
signals pass through with zero-gain. The HT pre/pro now
sets the volume.

It's very simple, although my explanation probably stinks.

 

[HsvToolFool]

So, yes, the Summits will waste the amp's capability!

The FPB amp's "capability" I referenced is not arc-welding.
They aren't considered reference-level amps for their power
ratings. Nobody puts 300+ watts of power through a
speaker.

ML stat panels are extremely revealing, neutral, and
accurate, especially in the mid-range. Krell strengths are
the legendary clean and powerful bass of course, but the
FPB series (all of them) also offer neutral and stunning
realism in the...wait for it....don't rush it...the mid-range.

A lesser speaker corrupts the realism the FPB amps can
convey. For example, using an FPB to drive $300/pr Klipsh
bookshelf speakers would be a waste of an excellent amp.
But my poor, old SL3 are an excellent match for the FPB.

I even consider my eventual move to the Summit to be an
"upgrade" despite the fact they're MUCH more expensive
than SL3, they don't have that warm and musical SL3
"sound", and I'll waste the Summit's capabilites by not
playing them as loud as possible.

I've only seen one review on the new Evolution series
(Stereophile; Evolution 600 monoblocks) because I
missed the Jan 2006 TAS issue reviewing the Evolution
One monoblocks. Despite the Wes Philips's statement
that, "The Evolution 600 put all of its forebears to shame.",
I really don't expect earth-shattering differences between
the Evo-series and the preceding FPB-series. Subtle
refinements certainly, but overall the same Krell accuracy
and realism.

As for the rest, this is devolving into yet another Tubes-vs-
Solid State slash Romance-vs-Realism debate. So we'll just
agree to disagree and move on.