upgrade Request to odissey ?

[luclorent]

Hallo to all of you.

This is my first post and i am sorry if my english is not very good.

I have a pair of request since one year. I have tried about all possible placement in my listening room but i can not get rid of a problem with the bass frequences that are rather boomy.

A friend of mine explained me that the problem comes from the boomer (30 cm) that causes problems of "room resonance".

I have the opportunity of getting odisseys.

With those speakers, could the problem of room resonance disappear?

Thank you for reading me.

Luc

 

[SugarMedia]

Luc-

You probably need, "Acoustic Wall Panels" or something else to absorb sound in your roon. i.e., a Persian Rug.

 

[HK-Steve]

Can you give us a bit more of an idea of your equipment,
and how the speakers are positioned in the room.

Distance from side and rear walls?

How big is the room?



Cheers
Steve

 

[DTB300]

Changing speakers will not change room problems. Addressing the room problems, like someone already stated, will solve your issues.

Here is a great situation that I have been reading over at another audio site:...There was a user out there that had a pair of Magnepan's and moved into a new house. He could not get the Magnepan's to sound right in the new home (he owns some nice electronics to go with them - Krell, Jolida, etc) so he sold the speakers and bought a pair of VMPS speakers, thinking this would solve all his problems. Guess what - he still had problems. Once he made up some DIY bass trap and used some wall hangings, those speaker problems went away. And this was after MANY MANY people spoke about checking out the room acoustics first.

Anyways, there are many great people here who can help you out with some simple cheap room acoustic changes first - wall hangings, etc. You can then try out some DIY Bass Traps that can be made really cheap. Here is a link for you on this subject...

Text on DIY Bass Traps:
http://www.geocities.com/jonrisch/a1.htm

Pictures showing construction:
http://www.geocities.com/jonrisch/basstrap.htm

Dan

 

[luclorent]

Hi,

Thanks for the answers to my post.

I know that room problems ruin any loudspeaker. But I have heard that the odyssey can reduce the problems or a part of the problems by its conception itself, i mean the ForceForward.

Maybe the odyssey could help me to do less acoustic job in my room.

Anyway, if I change the request for the Odyssey, Shall I get something better or not ?


Thanks again.

Luc

 

[roberto]

yes...odyssey force forward is the solution...

the problem bass reflections... the solution ForceForward

As long as recorded music has been enjoyed in the home, loudspeaker designers have faced the challenge of room interactions produced by bass frequencies which can color and alter the character of the music. These colorations are a natural occurrence of sound wave reflection and motion through any listening room.

Remember that all speakers radiate bass frequencies
in all directions—including behind the speaker.

The low frequencies which are reflected from the front wall and back to the listening position, add to or subtract from the original audio material and chaotically interact throughout the listening environment. Typically, this produces a diminished signal—called a null—at about 50Hz and an enhanced signal—a peak—at around 100Hz.


These fundamental frequencies produce similar nulls and peaks at their respective harmonics throughout the audio spectrum, making the flat frequency response of your system anything but. This is one reason why the same recording produces a distinctly different character when played in different listening rooms and what makes some notes sound boomy while others seem thin.

In a typical listening room, the main speakers are placed at varying distances from the front wall—usually from 3 to 7 feet. The idea is to create the most perfect balance between the stereo image, staging and bass response. Often, even your best efforts produce a compromise with no perfect solution. For instance, moving your speakers into the room increases the time required for the reflected bass to reach your listening position with the benefit of improving bass response. However, many times this can also shrink the sound stage producing an image that lacks depth.

Audiophiles have known these issues all along. In their pursuit of absolute sonic purity, they have gone to great measures to create the best possible compromise by applying various room conditioning elements-such as tube and corner traps—and by repeatedly tweaking both the speaker and listening positions to get the best image vs. bass response. Though these procedures can be effective, they require a very discerning ear, some technical know-how, and the time and patience to experiment—and still they don't always completely resolve the problem. Furthermore, they can have a considerable impact on the listening room look, your bank account, and they take you away from the main reason you invested in your home system in the first place—enjoyment!

ForceForward Solution
MartinLogan's ForceForward is changing how audiophiles and home theater enthusiasts enjoy home entertainment. Incorporated into our Prodigy speaker, it makes room setup easier and more flexible than ever while providing a more uniform sound field over a much larger listening area without the tedious hassles and tweaking.

MartinLogan's ForceForward uses a combination of
proprietary technologies to reduce and even eliminate
these anomalies throughout the listening room.

Our engineering group pioneered a calibrated woofer system integrated with a tightly controlled network to dramatically reduce this problem by directing the low frequency energy only in the forward direction—ForceForward.

The diagram above shows the path length between the front and rear woofer and the resultant net room bass. By shifting the energy below 100 Hz in time (phase) we condition the distance relationship between the two drivers in such a way that the energy arrives at a sum in the front, yet results in a null in the back. This causes a near complete absence of energy between the rear wall and the speaker and a coherent wave front directed forward, resulting in easier room placement and more uniform bass throughout the room.

The best part is that you can place your MartinLogan's in a much wider range of configurations—closer to the front wall for instance—and still enjoy the same incomparable bass power, staging, and fidelity.



Trust your ears and happy listening.
Regards from Costa Rica,
Roberto.

 

[kach22i]

I just posted this, please forgive the "Copy & Paste" - seems to be the same problem over and over again.

It might not be the speaker, nor even the rooms acoustics messing with the bass. I have the typical sprung wood floor, which is to say that it is a house with a basement. I built a homemade copy of the Bright-Star sand boxes to absorb the bass resonances - it worked.

This innovation was so efficient at aborbing energy that it sucked some life and trebble out of the speaker too.

To regain the top end but still control the mid-range and bass I placed steel plates under the speakers. I tuned the sound by experimenting to see if it sounded best with one or two speaker feet/spikes resting on the steel - verses the compress wood top.

Final tuning involved purchasing large ceramic concrete cutting disks for the back cones to rest on.

In general I've found the sound of a material when used under audio equipment (including speakers) to mimic the material i'self. That is to say, steel sounds strong but cold, glass is clear but can cause glare, wood is natural and warm but can be grainy or soft/soggy.

Look at the members systems, you will see several aftermarket platforms under the hybrid speakers for a good reason (including the foam and rubber ones).

Note-1: When you raise the speakers you will have to tilt them towards the listening position - they were not designed to sit so high (3-4 inches higher).

Note-2: I've built all sorts of room acoustic panels as so forth - start at the source (speaker in this case) not the artifact (resultant room acoustics).

 

[Peter_Klim]

...There was a user out there that had a pair of Magnepan's and moved into a new house. He could not get the Magnepan's to sound right in the new home (he owns some nice electronics to go with them - Krell, Jolida, etc) so he sold the speakers and bought a pair of VMPS speakers, thinking this would solve all his problems. Guess what - he still had problems. Once he made up some DIY bass trap and used some wall hangings, those speaker problems went away...
Dan

Are you talking about the Lord?

 

[DTB300]

Are you talking about the Lord?

Who else...Lord, King, Ruler...depends on the day and the usename he used in a forum

We had a discussion on AA when he trashed the new Summit based solely on the looks (said they could not sound good based on the looks alone) and all of his previous listening sessions of ML's - though he stated that he had never heard CLS's, only the Hybrids. His statement about the Summits were something along the line of Walmart Specials....

The guy was a real hoot to read....When he was moving to VMPS speakers, becuase his Maggies did not sound right in his new room, the Planar Forum over at AA really gave him grief. He then buys VMPS ($3000+) and finds out the room is still a problem. Then when some people really got on him at VMPS Forum when he has to move back home, many came to his defense stating we all have problems in life......how true.....but you had to read all his posts to get the drift of the attacks...

He basically used forums as his main form of life...telling about every little thing in his life....At times I felt sorry for the guy....

Dan

 

[Peter_Klim]

Who else...Lord, King, Ruler...depends on the day and the usename he used in a forum

We had a discussion on AA when he trashed the new Summit based solely on the looks (said they could not sound good based on the looks alone) and all of his previous listening sessions of ML's - though he stated that he had never heard CLS's, only the Hybrids. His statement about the Summits were something along the line of Walmart Specials....

The guy was a real hoot to read....When he was moving to VMPS speakers, becuase his Maggies did not sound right in his new room, the Planar Forum over at AA really gave him grief. He then buys VMPS ($3000+) and finds out the room is still a problem. Then when some people really got on him at VMPS Forum when he has to move back home, many came to his defense stating we all have problems in life......how true.....but you had to read all his posts to get the drift of the attacks...

He basically used forums as his main form of life...telling about every little thing in his life....At times I felt sorry for the guy....

Dan

"He basically used forums as his main form of life...telling about every little thing in his life....At times I felt sorry for the guy...."

- Like how much he hated the States for getting a speeding ticket? Because in Germany on the autobond her could drive 120 mph without getting one.

Yeah, I only read about him on AudioReview.com. When you started listing his stuff, I knew it was him. He was a young and proud "know-it-all" and cracked me up (like Kevin?). Funny how he always bragged about his Maggies and stated that other speakers, including Martin Logans, can't and couldn't sound as good because they still use a box. He was the only member I can recall who submitted a pic of his system that included...himself in it LOL!! Some of his more favorable compliments went something like: "Nice system, but I don't like the sound of the <insert brand here>... they sound like a box." And what did he finally get??

I can't wait till he buys his first set of ML and ends up here. It'll be a treat to read his posts

 

[luclorent]

from reQuest to Odyssey

Hi to all of you !

At the beginning of the post, I mansionned problems of bass resonnance with my reQuest. I had an opportunity to get Odyssey and I was asking myself if it would be a solution to change my speakers.

First, I made changes in my room. I placed the system in the larger part of it and made some experiments with carpets on the walls and so on. I finally obtained a "good" sound.

Three weeks ago, I had the opportunity to buy one of the last pairs of Odyssey disposable in Belgium. The price was very interesting !! Thanks to my local dealer (who is a friend of mine).

So, I replaced the good old big reQuest with the Odyssey. The diference is unbelievable !!! The focus is better, the depth of the sceene too, and the Bass........Amazing.

I will soon send pictures of my system with a description of the material.

If any one in belgium or france is interested by reQuest, they are now for sale. You can contact me at [email protected]

So, I wish a long life tu this site and this forum made for us, ML lovers.

Thanks again and see you soon.

Luc

 

[yawg]

Odyssey vs. CLS IIz

Hi all,

I have a pair of CLS IIz about 8 years old and found they never played loud enough for my taste, having used big dynamic floorstanders in the past. So when I found a used pair of Odysseys on the net close to my place (I live in Holland/Europe) I checked them out and had a listening test at the dealer's who sold them for a customer. The dealer thougt that the Odysseys sounded even better than the more expensive Prodigies which he also had on display, more defined bass with the Odysseys because of the smaller faster bass units.

I took all my own gear and music to get a good impression, Stax CA-X Pro pre and DA-100M monos (100 W/ch. class A) and my Arcam CD-23 transport with Cayin DA-2 tube-DAC, even my own cables because I know how they affect the overall sound. The dealer's listening room was optimized with filled-out corners and well damped and the Odysseys were placed exactly symmetrical in the room.

I was amazed about the volume they could produce but the bass was a bit thick (at home I use my CLS with a fast active sub, a Nubert AW-1000) and even with the bass control on the Odysseys set to low with some recordings it still seemed to be more than enough. There should be an extra in-between position on the bass-control IMO.

But the most amazing was the fact that I altogether missed that holographic soundstage that my CLS produce at my home. So I didn't buy the Odysseys even though it would have been a fantastic deal at half the price with still some factory warranty on them.

Seen the comparably cheap price of used CLS IIz (if you can find a pair) I'd advise you to buy them instead of falling for ANY of the ML hybrids (I've never heard the new Summits but they are way beyond my budget anyway), I payed 2000 euros for mine, they were five years old in mint condition when I bought them tree years back.

If you get the room damping and positioning in the room right (exactly symmetrical with some toe-in) AND the amplification (after much trial and error I swear by my vintage Stax-equipment, a perfect match with the CLS, Stax also made excellent electrostatic speakers in their heyday) there's probably NO other speaker out there that will outperform the late CLS IIz except for higher volumes and big orchestra reprocuced on a "realistic" scale like Mahler or Shostakovich.

So I just bought a Stax electrostatic "Earspeaker" to listen to big orchestras ...

I once got a second pair of CLS IIz with new panels on German Ebay for under 1700 euros and when I put them for sale on the net I mostly got reactions of other CLS-owners why in God's name I wanted to part with the best speakers in the world

I finally sold them after four months of different ads on the net to a Dutch dude who owned old CLS which had gotten a bit long in the tooth

If you can find a pair of CLS IIz in good shape you have to check them out first!

Jörg.

 

[Jeff Zaret]

yawg,
I could not agree more and by no means do I want to spite any one else here. IMHO, I believe that there is no other speaker in the world that produces the "quality" of sound that ML can. There are other great speakers out there which may sound similar and some that can produce greater sound/pressure levels indeed. Also, there are differences between all of the models of ML's, as there should be. This is because not everyone has the same equipment, room size, taste in style and music,budget and hearing ability. THink about it if there was only one model, we wouldn't be here and it would not be fun!

I own two pairs of ML's, Sequel II and CLSiiZ. Without hesitation the CLS presents a holographic soundstage I have not heard from any other speaker. Yes, they may not "rock" the rafters but they why would you if you can hear everything and definitley "feel" it as well.

Just my opinion and if in anyway anyone feels offended or hurt it is not my intention to do so and if so, I am sorry.

Jeff

 

[roberto]

I´m going to be executed...

yawg,
I could not agree more and by no means do I want to spite any one else here. IMHO, I believe that there is no other speaker in the world that produces the "quality" of sound that ML can. There are other great speakers out there which may sound similar and some that can produce greater sound/pressure levels indeed. Also, there are differences between all of the models of ML's, as there should be. This is because not everyone has the same equipment, room size, taste in style and music,budget and hearing ability. THink about it if there was only one model, we wouldn't be here and it would not be fun!

I own two pairs of ML's, Sequel II and CLSiiZ. Without hesitation the CLS presents a holographic soundstage I have not heard from any other speaker. Yes, they may not "rock" the rafters but they why would you if you can hear everything and definitley "feel" it as well.

Just my opinion and if in anyway anyone feels offended or hurt it is not my intention to do so and if so, I am sorry.

Jeff

Hola Jeff and chicos!!!...still that my ears and my heart are letting me know that I do love my CLS IIz, when you listen a big orchestra, the problem is that what we are listening is the DIGITAL GARBAGE. If you play a good turtable with big orchestras, you don´t have any stressed sound from them. Also, CLSs love small rooms...and will show to your ears, any component at the chain of your system, cables or connectors. The narrow sweet spot has being called a problem, but no other speaker matches the scenario and stage that they produce...right size of the musical instruments, timbre, air between then, super holographic stage, you get the soul of the musician playing there, at the stage. I will like to point out another issue: because we don´t play them too loud, due to amplifier´s clipping and hard to drive them at high levels, you don´t get any ear´s fatigue and you can listen to music for hours of enjoyment. The inner detail of a string plucked, the easy transient and natural tonal balance makes them a truly Diammond. The cymbal realism, that you can tell when the drummer is using wooden tips or nylon, and also his bare hand to play the drum sometimes as an effect...(quality of silence by Steve Daves as an example) the detail, the crystal clear highs...and the best of all: coherence...there is no crossover...the phase relationship is perfect...the only speakers that I have ever heard that will kill them is other CLS...you know how I am regarding the new Summits, and they will provide many low freq. info. that I´m not getting from them, that´s a liking thing regarding how we, as listeners, like the sound. But the CLS are the speakers that aren´t there...only stage and musicians playing...
Happy listening,
Warm regards to all my friends from Costa Rica,
Roberto.

 

[DTB300]

The dealer thougt that the Odysseys sounded even better than the more expensive Prodigies which he also had on display, more defined bass with the Odysseys because of the smaller faster bass units.

IMHO, the Odysseys were the best sounding of the Hybrid speakers by ML until I heard the Summit's - The integration of the bass with the panels on the Summit is superb and the controls you now get on the bass unit (overall volume along with gain/reduction at 25Hz & 50Hz) really help out over the old 0dB and -3dB that was seen on some of the models.

Dan

 

[Jeff Zaret]

Roberto,
Thanks for adding to my comments.

Dan,

It almost sounds like we a leaning more towards Summits than the CLS camp.
LOL

Jeff

 

[roberto]

will get soon my Summits...

Roberto,
Thanks for adding to my comments.

Dan,

It almost sounds like we a leaning more towards Summits than the CLS camp.
LOL

Jeff

Hola Jeff, I will let you know soon...I´m getting the Summits here. As Dan pointed out, the adjustments for low frequency is the dream for all truly audiophile...no standing waves in your room!!!...and you can adjust the level for bass that you want in your room...new stat panels, 92 dBs of sensitivity...can´t wait...but to kill the CLS, is other story...
Regards my friends,
Roberto.