Tubes and SS

[Brad225]

Now the waiting game

Thanks for all input. I will wait until I have the amps in hand to move forward with cabling. I know this is the correct decision but I am not the most patient person waiting for something to happen once I have made a decision.
I will report back once they are in place.
Brad

 

[IWalker]

What model is the Welder? I looked on the ARC site, and didn't see anything mentioned about an ARC Welder!

 

[Brad225]

That would be the Classic 120 Mega Flash. You just need to have all your parts ready to assemble at one time

 

[Brad225]

Amps finally up and running

The holidays have been tough trying to get time to get the amps in place.
The tweaks will continue for a while I'm sure.
I started with the amps in the system with my sl3s bi amped using the Classic 120s for the panels and the Aragon 2004 for the low end. I let the 120s warm up for an hour or so and listened to a few cuts from different CDs. It took only a few seconds of the first track to realize what I hadn't been hearing for the last 8 years. I knew that I could move the sl3s a little farther apart and not have them toed in much at all. I am still playing with the vertical face angle to get it to its maximum staging. The sound was much warmer and less mechanical and edgy (if that makes sense) than the Aragon had sounded. The depth of the music was startling. Instruments and voices that previously were clearly grouped together nicely creating a sound stage that enjoyably filled the area between the speakers had obviously been quite two dimensional. The 120 seemed to place instrumentation and vocals in an array the gave each one its own place some in front some way in back but each was separate from the other. The most dramatic was a track on the Cowboy Junkies "Trinity Session" called To love is to Bury. At one point Kim Deschamps comes in on Dobro and it is coming from about 3-4' forward and 3-4' to the right of the right speaker. I kept looking at the speaker trying to convince myself that it was coming from the speaker but I would look at the speaker and turn my head to where the Dobro was and It was as though Kim was sitting at the side of the stage playing. I kept playing that part over and over staring at thin air with a puzzled look on my face I'm sure.
After listening for a couple of hours yesterday and today it seemed there was a bit of bass that I wasn't hearing. I made some new jumpers and removed the Aragon from the system and let the 120s do it all. It added so much more than the Aragon at 200w per channel into 4 ohms could. As Craig had said it was a mater of having a SS amp that would equal the tube amp and obviously the Aragon could not. I don't know how much of the change is due to the tubes but I would guess SS amps of the same quality would produce a simular change but different sound.
I have two low cost cd players.
An Oppo 971 H and a Sony NS755p. I had been using the Oppo at first and decided to switch to the Sony. I was surprised how much better it sounded with the Sony every sound was larger without being louder.
I have been looking for a new preamp and either a transport or player and some CLS IIzs. while I was waiting for the 120s to show up. I can't imagine another step forward as large as this one but logic tells it could happen. It sounds so good I can take my time and listen to all me music like I have never heard it before. That's not always good either. Some of CD tracks were to painful to listen to. Its is surprising how one track can sound so good and the next seem to be mixed so badly.
Any suggestions for Preamp or player which to replace next, I'd like to hear it.
I can't seem to get a link to a couple of photos to work. I'll keep trying and put it on another post. I don't want to erase this and have to start over again.

 

[Brad225]

Photos maybe

I think I got the photos, but they look a bit fuzzy. I will try again later with a different camera.


http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/brock24252425/detail?.dir=fcedre2&.dnm=2e94re2.jpg&.src=ph

http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/brock24252425/detail?.dir=fcedre2&.dnm=476cre2.jpg&.src=ph

http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/brock24252425/detail?.dir=fcedre2&.dnm=5502re2.jpg&.src=ph

http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/brock24252425/detail?.dir=fcedre2&.dnm=5502re2.jpg&.src=ph

 

[aliveatfive]

Hey Brad-

When I owned the Classic 60 I used an Aragon 4002 to bi-amp my Sequels. I got an inordinate amount of 60 cycle hum. Did you experience the same? Have you tried the 120's without the transistors? (By themselves?)

 

[Brad225]

alive
I heard no hum. What transistor are you speaking of?

 

[David Matz]

Any suggestions for Preamp or player which to replace next, I'd like to hear it.

I would replace your CD Player first. Not sure what your budget is, but see if you can listen to Ayre CX 7e. It is the best value for the money out of all of the CD players out there, and has amazing 3d sound, rhythm, and detail - an excellent complement to the Logan sound we all love. Your room becomes a stage. The sound is so intoxicating, you will rediscover all of your music. Once you hear it, you will not worry about the preamp for a little while, until the next upgrade bug hits.

The Naim CD 5x is excellent also. This player has the best musicality and rhythm I have heard, but lacks the "airiness" of Ayre. It JAMS the music.

 

[Pcar928fan]

What about the new Rega Apollo I think it is??? $995 and getting RAVE reviews in ALL the mags! They say it would take about a $3k player to best it! I have not heard one, so I can't say but from the reviewers it sure sounds like it must be other worldly!

I would replace your CD Player first. Not sure what your budget is, but see if you can listen to Ayre CX 7e. It is the best value for the money out of all of the CD players out there

 

[David Matz]

What about the new Rega Apollo I think it is??? $995 and getting RAVE reviews in ALL the mags! They say it would take about a $3k player to best it! I have not heard one, so I can't say but from the reviewers it sure sounds like it must be other worldly!

I have heard the Appollo and it is excellent. However, it is easily bested by the $1700 Naim 5i and by it's big brother, the Saturn at $2400. The Saturn is easily bested by the Naim 5x and the Ayre, both at $3K.

However, it all depends on one's budget, as all of those mentioned above are excellent.

 

[lugano]

What about the new Rega Apollo I think it is??? $995 and getting RAVE reviews in ALL the mags! They say it would take about a $3k player to best it! I have not heard one, so I can't say but from the reviewers it sure sounds like it must be other worldly!

I own the Rega Apollo and I am very happy with it - it really deserves the reviews it got and sincerely I can't see any alternatives to it in the 3-digit price range. A good friend of mine ran into the Hifi store where I bought it, after half an hour of listening at my place, and brought home one, too. And as silly as it might seem, the fact that it also plays MP3 CD's is a nice feature for me: I still don't stream music into my Hifi even if I could do it, I prefer MP3 disks carefully planned around the kind of ambiance I'm after in a particular situation and depending on who's around visiting. A good example was yesterday, with guests arriving at 6 PM and leaving after 1 AM - I stood up only 2 times to change the CD

 

[Pcar928fan]

I own the Rega Apollo and I am very happy with it - it really deserves the reviews it got and sincerely I can't see any alternatives to it in the 3-digit price range. A good friend of mine ran into the Hifi store where I bought it, after half an hour of listening at my place, and brought home one, too. And as silly as it might seem, the fact that it also plays MP3 CD's is a nice feature for me: I still don't stream music into my Hifi even if I could do it, I prefer MP3 disks carefully planned around the kind of ambiance I'm after in a particular situation and depending on who's around visiting. A good example was yesterday, with guests arriving at 6 PM and leaving after 1 AM - I stood up only 2 times to change the CD

You could also do that with play lists on an MP3 player like an iPod. I agree though there is just something about a handful of small sliver discs that is undeniable.

Happy New Year to all! It will be here before we know it!

 

[tonyc]

Welcome Brad! I use a tubed preamp with solid state amplication (arc Ref3 and Rowland 8T) with superb results. I just purchased Summits and hope to try a tube amp at some point. I am anxiously awaiting aliveatfive's promised review of the arc Ref 110 (hint hint). The first time I ever heard ML's was a pair of SL3's driven by a huge, honking Counterpoint tube amp and it was MAGIC!

 

[lugano]

You could also do that with play lists on an MP3 player like an iPod. I agree though there is just something about a handful of small sliver discs that is undeniable.

Sure, I could, but I'd have to rely on the poor iPod's DAC. This way the music runs through my Benchmark DAC, to my beeeg satisfaction But you are right, when we've got guests there's mostly no critical listening taking place, even if I always stress the importance of a good HiFi system, especially with friends that could allow themselves new summits any time but keep listening to a sanyo mini system

 

[DTB300]

The first time I ever heard ML's was a pair of SL3's driven by a huge, honking Counterpoint tube amp and it was MAGIC!

I used to run a CP SA-220 with my Sequel II's, but got tired of the reliability of the unit. Was the Counterpoint you heard the OTL model? That is the only all Tube Amp I remember them having. Most were Hybrid designs like the 220.

Dan

 

[Brad225]

Thanks David. I did what looking I could about the Ayre CX 7e. I has some great reviews. I found two leads on 1 year old 7e units should find out Friday if its going to be available. Hopefully it will work out.

 

[Brad225]

I know I said "I can't imagine another step forward as large as this" in relation
to listening to my classic 120s for the first time in my system.

I took Dave Matz's suggestion to change my CD player next before a preamp. I tried took listen to the Ayre 7 but the dealer was not receptive to letting me hear it and giving him money for one of his products.

I looked at a long list of players and reviews of how different players compared. I decided I would buy one, listen for a while buy a second and compare them, and keep which ever sounded better. The first is a Krell SACD Standard. I would never bought this unit new because of the cost but I found a dealer demo of the new version with a full warranty at a great price.

I know you would not normally make a comparison between my $300 Sony CD/SACD player using the transport with an Aragon D2A against the Krell but that is the only comparison I can make.

If the ACR 120s were a dramatic improvement the Standard was nothing less than spectacular. I know I have really not listened to a lot of new electronics at home for a number of years but I had know idea how good my sl3s could sound.

I not been around many hi end stores ( I have only lived in Tampa for a short time) for a while. When I would go into the Sound Advice in the town I lived in I would listen to MLs and other speakers with good equipment and was not convinced it sounded any better than what I had at home.

The Sony was full sounding with what I thought was a decent imaging ability. Not all of the music I listened to was as crisp and clean as I thought it should be but I guess I just didn't realize it was the player that was the weakest link in the equipment chain. On many musical pieces there was always what I would describe as a very slight fuzziness to the back ground. Not so much to think the equipment was malfunctioning but that is was just part of the recording. But I had no idea how much better it could sound

With the Krell the images were so defined and clearly placed with no background noise ( I guess this is what I have heard people call blackness of the sound). It placed voices and instruments in multitude of places I had never heard before and they were so crisp, clear and full it was hard to believe this was the same music I had been listening to.
I have only bought a few SACDs until now and without hearing the same music on a Redbook CD back to back it would be hard to say how they compared. I will say all of the SACDs sounded wonderful but so did well recorded CDs.

The imaging was so full that it was obvious the speakers could be moved further apart and straightened to where with the "flashlight trick" I was facing about 2" in from the inside edge and I still may be able to make that even less. Even moving the sl3s to the max width the room size would allow without getting to near the side walls. The sound image still filled the 9' between them. I have a large cabinet between and just behind the speakers and there was no sign of clouding or defusing the imaging although I know it has to affect the sound. It will be a couple of years before the cabinet is gone with a video change but it would have to improve depth of sound.

It is certainly possible I could have heard the same changes with many other players but I have no idea at this point. I was originally going to try a
Sony SCD1 as the next player but I think I will try something with tubes and possibly a lower cost player to see how they compare.

I did decided, because the change in the sound was so impressive, if I was going to change preamps I should do it before I auditioned more players.

(Yes, I may be going thur what has been described as Joeyitis but hey, at least it would put me in good company. Sorry for using your diagnosed euphoric condition without permission).

I found an ARC LS25 I and should have it sometime this week. I think changing to tubes from SS will again be a large change. If it is I will try not to ramble on as much without really being able to describe the sound definitively.

 

[Joey_V]

(Yes, I may be going thur what has been described as Joeyitis but hey, at least it would put me in good company. Sorry for using your diagnosed euphoric condition without permission).

Ah... dont worry my friend! All's fair in love and logans.

Enjoyed your story and now I'm having the hankering for a new DAC or CDP....

 

[karma]

Ramble More, Please

HI Brad,
What you mean "ramble"? It's wonderful to hear about peoples individual hi fi journeys. It is discovery. It is amazement. It is a quest for truth. I find it very exciting. Thanks.

Sparky

 

[tonyc]

I used to run a CP SA-220 with my Sequel II's, but got tired of the reliability of the unit. Was the Counterpoint you heard the OTL model? That is the only all Tube Amp I remember them having. Most were Hybrid designs like the 220.

Dan

It may well have been the 220. It did sound wonderful!