Masterpiece positioning

[liffy99]

I’m running a pair of Quad 2905s plus passive subs in an actively amplified setup incorporating Roomperfect. It all sounds pretty decent.
However I was recently very impressed ( excuse the pun) by a pair of 11As and am considering a change ( assuming the Lyngdorf digital amp can drive them - there is some doubt on that one).
My question is; would the 11As, or even 13As fit in our lounge ? Which is about 25sq m, or just over 6 x 4 m.
As in the picture I fire the Quads over the 4m width of the room which is essentially one half of the floorspace. The grey wall behind them is 3m across and the panels are 1.1m ( at mid point) in front of it. To the right of the rhs speaker is the other half of the room.
The grey section is, essentially, a wide alcove with unmatched corners. The Quads are about 1.7m apart between inside edges. I sit about 2.5m from the plane of the speakers. The outside edges of the 11s would fire into a couple of metres at least of free space.

Now, the 11s, or 13s, are half the width of the Quads, and from what I’ve read, need less toe in ( try to keep the rear sound wave firing into a corner) . They could be up to 2.2m apart, inside edges. But would 1.1m from wall to panel be enough given the 70cm box depth ?

I would ditch the passive subs you see at the rear if I went 11 or 13A.

 

[Fidji99]

110 cm is OK - rule of thumb for Masterpiece - back side of the woofer enclosure should be min the size of woofer from the wall. So you shoul be ok, e.g. 13a 25cm

also 2.2 m is more than enough, i had them at some point 1.8m apart and no toe in, sound was good, on top you have option to use ARC and get bass section controlled. You can also play with forward tilt, this gives nice benefit, if done properly.

 

[Brandon Hartwick]

I'd go with the 11s over the 13s, I've never been a fan of giant speakers shoehorned into a room.

 

[Fidji99]

Actually - 13a’s are not that much bigger in size compared to 11a’s. 15a’s are the big boys.
Difference in performance is much bigger than difference in size - 13a’s are the sweet spot of ML offer in my opinion. You can fit 13a in every rom, where you can fit 11a and they sound significantly better, due to their larger panel size.

 

[Big Dog RJ]

Ah! The famous Quad ESL's... actually owned those as well (ESL 63, 989, 2905's and 2912's). Just about great until production moved to China and what a bloody disaster that was! Won't dwell over that, I've posted lengthy reviews on various threads here... so we'll leave it at that.

The ML's are in a totally different league, there's no comparison whatsoever! Also, I'd be more than willing to pay for proper QC and production standards coming out of Canada or USA or Europe any day!

Having also owned the previous Reserve line, from the Ethos (real vfm) to the Montis and Summit-X, I can confidently say that ML's Masterpiece line is a true Masterpiece! Nothing more to add.

The Quad 2905's are quite large, by no means are they smallish stats, and they do require a fairly decent amount of space to perform optimally. Thanks to their unique dispersion pattern (using concentric ring anodes with delay coils) that form a ripple effect, mimicking a point source rather than a line source, which enables the advantage of placing the Quads in smaller rooms or closer to the back / front wall. Hence, doesn't have to be a football field away. It's getting that bass / LF to sound right from Quads multiple panels, where the top & bottom most panels are the extra bass panels. So in total the 2905's have 6 separate stat panels wired together and held together with their concentric ring anodes (a marvellous concept by Peter Walker the genius!) And also suited the much smaller Quads (ESL 63's and 2805's) definitely not the larger ones. Apart from the HF's being rolled off with an artificial bump in midrange, the bass from Quads always had a "drum" effect, I could clearly hear that panel! Anyway, that's Quad.

With ML's Masterpiece series, it's at a completely different level.
1. Latest Blade tech is used, previously deployed from the X-stat tech, using various high performance metal alloys.
2. Micro-perf stators, providing even greater electrostat surface radiating area.
3. The stators are vacuum bonded, allowing very high tolerances, no arcing, no flexing, and zero distortion, absolutely no overhang. (No glues or adhesives are used extensively like those found in every Quad ESL's)
4. These vacuum bonded stators have very high tolerances to over 10,000 volts, so trying to arc any Masterpiece series ML's will pretty much burn your house down, if ever you were tempted to do so. So don't even go there!
5. Dual Force bass drivers, with greater levels of control, plus fitted with powerful Class D amplifiers (allows faster switching) with built-in DSP and ARC (Anthem room correction) software, allows for proper room placement and fine tuning, where the bass drivers blend seamlessly with the stat panels, it's bloody marvellous!!! Definitely no subs required here whatsoever. Unless you really want that Abraham's tank rolling into your living room... HT settings perhaps.

Overall, compared to any other ML line, the Masterpiece series have come a long way, and they are definitely true High Performance speakers, without a doubt!

Now, I simply cannot say that your room would suit... simply because I haven't been in it to have a listen. Therefore, all we can offer is speculation that it would, should or may work. Only you can determine that factor, based on your listening habits, musical preferences and style of listening playback.

One thing I can say though is that if your Quad 2905's performed just about ok in that particular setting, the ML's will elevate your entire listening experience, it will enhance your life! Just to be cautious, I would first recommend the 11A's, simply because it's a more manageable design, even though the 13A's aren't that much bigger. I've personally auditioned 11A's out-performing 13A's and 15A's solely based on the room size. The very extraordinary performance will exceed all expectations when given proper space to breathe. If you do go larger in panel size (13A's to 15A's) that room size needs to expand corresponding with the panels dispersion dimensions, not just panel height. Depth of bass encloser is just as important in order to achieve smooth, layered and detailed bass lines, otherwise it'll end up sounding lumpy.

*Note** the larger size in panels will also equate to a much more stable power amplifier. By stable, I'm not only referring to watts per channel in RMS output power but also in terms of rock solid power supplies- high current capacity and highly stable voltages across the impedence swing of stats. Don't use small amplifiers with puny power supplies, they'll run out of puff... regardless of watts/ch, doesn't mean anything. Class A power is an awe-inspiring experience with stats, Class AB is pretty awesome and equally outstanding, Class D- not all are built the same high standards (Jeff Rowland is my preference in Class D if it's a must). Since I prefer tooobs, I exclusively use Conrad johnson design tube amplifiers to drive CLX's. No other speaker system I'd rather own, regardless of price or make.

Cheers mate! Hope that helps 50cts worth of my experience with fingers burnt many times in this topsy-turvy passion of highend audio.
Enjoy those fine tunes!
Woof! RJ

 

[ejspain]

Ah! The famous Quad ESL's... actually owned those as well (ESL 63, 989, 2905's and 2912's). Just about great until production moved to China and what a bloody disaster that was! Won't dwell over that, I've posted lengthy reviews on various threads here... so we'll leave it at that.

The ML's are in a totally different league, there's no comparison whatsoever! Also, I'd be more than willing to pay for proper QC and production standards coming out of Canada or USA or Europe any day!

Having also owned the previous Reserve line, from the Ethos (real vfm) to the Montis and Summit-X, I can confidently say that ML's Masterpiece line is a true Masterpiece! Nothing more to add.

The Quad 2905's are quite large, by no means are they smallish stats, and they do require a fairly decent amount of space to perform optimally. Thanks to their unique dispersion pattern (using concentric ring anodes with delay coils) that form a ripple effect, mimicking a point source rather than a line source, which enables the advantage of placing the Quads in smaller rooms or closer to the back / front wall. Hence, doesn't have to be a football field away. It's getting that bass / LF to sound right from Quads multiple panels, where the top & bottom most panels are the extra bass panels. So in total the 2905's have 6 separate stat panels wired together and held together with their concentric ring anodes (a marvellous concept by Peter Walker the genius!) And also suited the much smaller Quads (ESL 63's and 2805's) definitely not the larger ones. Apart from the HF's being rolled off with an artificial bump in midrange, the bass from Quads always had a "drum" effect, I could clearly hear that panel! Anyway, that's Quad.

With ML's Masterpiece series, it's at a completely different level.
1. Latest Blade tech is used, previously deployed from the X-stat tech, using various high performance metal alloys.
2. Micro-perf stators, providing even greater electrostat surface radiating area.
3. The stators are vacuum bonded, allowing very high tolerances, no arcing, no flexing, and zero distortion, absolutely no overhang. (No glues or adhesives are used extensively like those found in every Quad ESL's)
4. These vacuum bonded stators have very high tolerances to over 10,000 volts, so trying to arc any Masterpiece series ML's will pretty much burn your house down, if ever you were tempted to do so. So don't even go there!
5. Dual Force bass drivers, with greater levels of control, plus fitted with powerful Class D amplifiers (allows faster switching) with built-in DSP and ARC (Anthem room correction) software, allows for proper room placement and fine tuning, where the bass drivers blend seamlessly with the stat panels, it's bloody marvellous!!! Definitely no subs required here whatsoever. Unless you really want that Abraham's tank rolling into your living room... HT settings perhaps.

Overall, compared to any other ML line, the Masterpiece series have come a long way, and they are definitely true High Performance speakers, without a doubt!

Now, I simply cannot say that your room would suit... simply because I haven't been in it to have a listen. Therefore, all we can offer is speculation that it would, should or may work. Only you can determine that factor, based on your listening habits, musical preferences and style of listening playback.

One thing I can say though is that if your Quad 2905's performed just about ok in that particular setting, the ML's will elevate your entire listening experience, it will enhance your life! Just to be cautious, I would first recommend the 11A's, simply because it's a more manageable design, even though the 13A's aren't that much bigger. I've personally auditioned 11A's out-performing 13A's and 15A's solely based on the room size. The very extraordinary performance will exceed all expectations when given proper space to breathe. If you do go larger in panel size (13A's to 15A's) that room size needs to expand corresponding with the panels dispersion dimensions, not just panel height. Depth of bass encloser is just as important in order to achieve smooth, layered and detailed bass lines, otherwise it'll end up sounding lumpy.

*Note** the larger size in panels will also equate to a much more stable power amplifier. By stable, I'm not only referring to watts per channel in RMS output power but also in terms of rock solid power supplies- high current capacity and highly stable voltages across the impedence swing of stats. Don't use small amplifiers with puny power supplies, they'll run out of puff... regardless of watts/ch, doesn't mean anything. Class A power is an awe-inspiring experience with stats, Class AB is pretty awesome and equally outstanding, Class D- not all are built the same high standards (Jeff Rowland is my preference in Class D if it's a must). Since I prefer tooobs, I exclusively use Conrad johnson design tube amplifiers to drive CLX's. No other speaker system I'd rather own, regardless of price or make.

Cheers mate! Hope that helps 50cts worth of my experience with fingers burnt many times in this topsy-turvy passion of highend audio.
Enjoy those fine tunes!
Woof! RJ

Great response Big Dog. God knows I wanted the 13As badly but you are spot on with room size and it's affect of the performance. My 11As perform FAR BETTER than experted once positioned, dialed in and properly amp'd (Parasound A31) in my 13'W x 18'D x 12'H space.

 

[liffy99]

Ah! The famous Quad ESL's... actually owned those as well (ESL 63, 989, 2905's and 2912's). Just about great until production moved to China and what a bloody disaster that was! Won't dwell over that, I've posted lengthy reviews on various threads here... so we'll leave it at that.

The ML's are in a totally different league, there's no comparison whatsoever! Also, I'd be more than willing to pay for proper QC and production standards coming out of Canada or USA or Europe any day!

Having also owned the previous Reserve line, from the Ethos (real vfm) to the Montis and Summit-X, I can confidently say that ML's Masterpiece line is a true Masterpiece! Nothing more to add.

The Quad 2905's are quite large, by no means are they smallish stats, and they do require a fairly decent amount of space to perform optimally. Thanks to their unique dispersion pattern (using concentric ring anodes with delay coils) that form a ripple effect, mimicking a point source rather than a line source, which enables the advantage of placing the Quads in smaller rooms or closer to the back / front wall. Hence, doesn't have to be a football field away. It's getting that bass / LF to sound right from Quads multiple panels, where the top & bottom most panels are the extra bass panels. So in total the 2905's have 6 separate stat panels wired together and held together with their concentric ring anodes (a marvellous concept by Peter Walker the genius!) And also suited the much smaller Quads (ESL 63's and 2805's) definitely not the larger ones. Apart from the HF's being rolled off with an artificial bump in midrange, the bass from Quads always had a "drum" effect, I could clearly hear that panel! Anyway, that's Quad.

With ML's Masterpiece series, it's at a completely different level.
1. Latest Blade tech is used, previously deployed from the X-stat tech, using various high performance metal alloys.
2. Micro-perf stators, providing even greater electrostat surface radiating area.
3. The stators are vacuum bonded, allowing very high tolerances, no arcing, no flexing, and zero distortion, absolutely no overhang. (No glues or adhesives are used extensively like those found in every Quad ESL's)
4. These vacuum bonded stators have very high tolerances to over 10,000 volts, so trying to arc any Masterpiece series ML's will pretty much burn your house down, if ever you were tempted to do so. So don't even go there!
5. Dual Force bass drivers, with greater levels of control, plus fitted with powerful Class D amplifiers (allows faster switching) with built-in DSP and ARC (Anthem room correction) software, allows for proper room placement and fine tuning, where the bass drivers blend seamlessly with the stat panels, it's bloody marvellous!!! Definitely no subs required here whatsoever. Unless you really want that Abraham's tank rolling into your living room... HT settings perhaps.

Overall, compared to any other ML line, the Masterpiece series have come a long way, and they are definitely true High Performance speakers, without a doubt!

Now, I simply cannot say that your room would suit... simply because I haven't been in it to have a listen. Therefore, all we can offer is speculation that it would, should or may work. Only you can determine that factor, based on your listening habits, musical preferences and style of listening playback.

One thing I can say though is that if your Quad 2905's performed just about ok in that particular setting, the ML's will elevate your entire listening experience, it will enhance your life! Just to be cautious, I would first recommend the 11A's, simply because it's a more manageable design, even though the 13A's aren't that much bigger. I've personally auditioned 11A's out-performing 13A's and 15A's solely based on the room size. The very extraordinary performance will exceed all expectations when given proper space to breathe. If you do go larger in panel size (13A's to 15A's) that room size needs to expand corresponding with the panels dispersion dimensions, not just panel height. Depth of bass encloser is just as important in order to achieve smooth, layered and detailed bass lines, otherwise it'll end up sounding lumpy.

*Note** the larger size in panels will also equate to a much more stable power amplifier. By stable, I'm not only referring to watts per channel in RMS output power but also in terms of rock solid power supplies- high current capacity and highly stable voltages across the impedence swing of stats. Don't use small amplifiers with puny power supplies, they'll run out of puff... regardless of watts/ch, doesn't mean anything. Class A power is an awe-inspiring experience with stats, Class AB is pretty awesome and equally outstanding, Class D- not all are built the same high standards (Jeff Rowland is my preference in Class D if it's a must). Since I prefer tooobs, I exclusively use Conrad johnson design tube amplifiers to drive CLX's. No other speaker system I'd rather own, regardless of price or make.

Cheers mate! Hope that helps 50cts worth of my experience with fingers burnt many times in this topsy-turvy passion of highend audio.
Enjoy those fine tunes!
Woof! RJ

Thanks. Never had many issues with my Quads ( also owned the 57s many moons ago). These were built in 2008. In 2022/23 I replaced all 12 panels (3 had developed faults) so they didn’t do too badly. Tbh they sound pretty good and bass is a little better having them bi-amped with a pair of passive corner woofers crossed at about 80Hz.
I have heard the 11s ( and 9s) and was very impressed. Probably a better match with room size than the 13s. I have owned Prodigies ( driven by Parasound JC1s - wish I’d kept those) in the same room but found them just too big, and the bass never worked well, despite there being plenty of it. However that was before I used room correction software.
My caution at the moment is about amp suitability. My Lyngdorf tdai3400 puts out 375W into 4 ohms and Lyngdorf tell me the low impedance of the MLs isn’t an issue. According to the specs the amp also swings up to 50 amps. However, when they tried running a pair of 11s they experienced hiss on playback. Noone seems to know why - class D bridged design into stats ? Works fine with the Quads. Some sort of interaction with the ML DSP ?
Clash between Roomperfect and ARC ? I can’t find exact details on the setup they used, nor users with similar setups.
If the full range, high level signal from the Lyngdorf is going into the 11’s single input, I can’t understand the problem, unless the speaker’s crossover is behaving very differently to a conventional design. ML are aware but haven’t come up with an explanation yet.
So, still trying to resolve this as I’d really like to try the MLs ( and make the other half happier).

 

[Big Dog RJ]

Mmm... hiss during playback on ML's stats, not sure why. That could be a wildcard, probably not an easy find either. If those amplifiers (being Class D) worked fine with Quads then there shouldn't be a problem with ML's hybrid stats. The Quads are full range... whereas hybrid stats have built-in powered bass drivers, so virtually half the push / load is taken care of.

Even then, driving just the stat panels themselves could pose a difficult load but not too serious to cause unwanted noise.
I'm not familiar with your make of Lyndorf at all. I'm sure the power output may be fine but like I said, it's not all about watts. If you open up any well designed Class A or AB amplifiers, you'll see straight away large power supplies. These are there for a reason, and that's the very reason being much larger current capacity and higher stable voltages across the impedence curve. When that impedence starts to swing, and mind you it swings in a blink of eye!... not like some kid swinging on a swing! Regardless of stat design, be it Quads, ML's, Acoustats, Inner Sound/ Sanders ESL's or the mighty Sound Lab ESL's, those impedence swings can cause a lot of issues, even on high powered amplifiers. Obviously having 1000w is better than 100w but out of those watts, what's being Ouput into real watts per channel (RMS- route mean square) vs how much of current capacity and stable voltages can the Output stage actually hold together across the impedence swing... that's the biggest question AND many so called high powered amplifiers fall terribly short. They simply go poof! Or puff puff...

Makes such as, Krell, Bryston, Parasound, Aragon, Sunfire, Pass Labs, Vitus, Dan D's designs, Boulder, Gryphon, CH Precision, Solution, Dartzeel, Aries Cerat, Bricasti, and Burmester to name a few, just have a look inside any of their models and you'll notice straight away what I'm referring to- well designed power supplies! They're all outstanding, obviously with different flavours but can handle difficult loads with ease.

I'm not saying that your Class D amplifier isn't any good, in fact it may be a great design. It's just a matter of finding the right fit to match your speakers, and in this case, the Class D matched quite well with the Quads but not too successful on the ML's.

A bit of trial and investigation is required. Perhaps during the demos, try a few other makes, such as Parasound or Anthem amplifiers, may prove to be a better match with stats, especially ML's since those designs are done really well. Something you'll need to check out before deciding on whether or not to purchase any ML's moving fwds. It would be a shame if after being impressed during the demo, and you were to actually buy the stats and set-up at home, to find unwanted noise or something out of the ordinary... there's definitely no enjoyment in that! So take your time to properly evaluate your options, and whether it's really necessary to even change speakers...? since your Quads are working fine as is!

Let us know how it goes.
Cheers, RJ

 

[liffy99]

Sadly I’m not in a position to change amps, besides which the Lyngdorf is the most transparent sounding amp I’ve owned - better in that respect than the Parasound JC1’s, Plinius class A, NVA and others.
The amp is a gem and does just about all I could ask for - fully digital, analogue and digital inputs in different formats, balanced in and outs, room correction software, streaming, active crossover capacity . . . I also have a power amp version that I use to drive my corner woofers.
I think all the amps you describe utilise the traditional linear power supplies ( the JC1s sported 2kva transformers apiece !). But what of switched power supplies ( like that in the Lyngdorf) ? I think the days of issues with RFI and screening etc have been left behind with today’s iterations from others like Hypex and Purifi.
I’m looking for used examples of the MLs, can’t afford dealer price for new, so trying with a range of different amps is unlikely.
I wonder if ML would actually research this issue ( assuming it wasn’t just a one-off) ? But the niche market of class D owners driving hybrid stats is small, and much smaller still in the case of one specific amp manufacturer. Probably not worth their time . . .

 

[Fidji99]

I am driving panels with D Class amps - first 13A's and now 15A's.

Purifi 1et400 [25a] & 13A - you could hear that it was limiting factor [compressed treble] , this is why I went for Purifi 1et7040 with 40A of current and the issues were gone.

I use new 1et9040ba (bridged d class) module from purifi with 15a’s and no issues. I am just taking care, that my DRC is not trying to boost anything above 10kHz

If you hear hiss from the panel - something is wrong, it is not a normal behavior.

 

[liffy99]

I am driving panels with D Class amps - first 13A's and now 15A's.

Purifi 1et400 [25a] & 13A - you could hear that it was limiting factor [compressed treble] , this is why I went for Purifi 1et7040 with 40A of current and the issues were gone.

I use new 1et9040ba (bridged d class) module from purifi with 15a’s and no issues. I am just taking care, that my DRC is not trying to boost anything above 10kHz

If you hear hiss from the panel - something is wrong, it is not a normal behavior.

Interesting. My amp also has a 40 amp output so perhaps it’s not that. However the room correction software does not allow tailoring of the frequencies it affects ( which span the whole audio range). That said I doubt it would be needing to boost high frequencies much - unlike Dirac etc it does not try to achieve a targeted flat response. It would be good to know if Lyngdorf tried the 3400 with or without Roomperfect running but they’ve not commented upon that.