To tube or not to tube

[billschreiner]

I'm nervous about going tube. Can you hear when the tubes go out? Is there enough juice to drive an electostatic? Can you go solid state amp with plenty of backbone and then get a nice tube pre and accomplish 90% of the sound with that?

I'm currently using a Classe 150 integrated (CAP 150) and Totem Mani 2's but am having trouble with my room and so am looking at a whole system change.

 

[eknuds01]

Yes -

When the tubes start to fade you will notice a sonic difference.

A good tube amp will drive the panels with relative ease. We have lots of forum members that drive their electrostatic speakers with quality tube amps. Again, you are after lots of current, not total wattage. A good tube amp will run circles over most of the integrated amps at Best Buy.

A popular combination is to use a beefy solid state amp to drive the speakers coupled with a tube pre-amp. With the solid state amp you avoid the hassel (and expense) of tube matching and replacement. You will have to replace the tubes in the pre-amp, but they tend to last a lot longer vs their counterparts in a tubed amp.

Can you go solid state amp with plenty of backbone and then get a nice tube pre and accomplish 90% of the sound with that?

No - not necessarily. It's all relative and depends on the application and room size. If you want to drive your speakers to loud SPL and watch movies and rock music, then I would go out and get a big integrated or SS amp.

I drove my Aerius i for years with a 75 wpc Yamaha integrated amp. This setup would make 99% of the forum members cringe and most of them would have charged me speaker abuse. Once I got out of grad school, I got a hold of a Sunfire amp and then used the yamaha for the pre-amp. I noticed a much wider sound stage and better/tighter bass. Then when I got my tube pre-amp I noticed a nice improvement with the mid-range and vocals. The insrtuments were crisp and detailed.

So that is one way to go. If you never listend to a tube amp before, I wouldn't run and get one right away. Get a good SS amp and see how that works with your receiver for now. Then try the new amp with a better digital pre, or maybe a tube pre and see what happens. There's no silver bullet here, it's all about trying new things and seeing how it works.

Like golf, stereo equipment is nothing more than various levels of dissatisfaction. Teach 'em to hit the ball well, and the student wants to hit the ball further. The same is true with your system. Once you drop 5k on upgrades, you take a look at DTB300's system, or Adamo's set up and you are convinced thay you didn't spend enough.

Erik

 

[sleepysurf]

I heartily recommend the tube Pre/SS amp route. It won't give you 100% of tube magic, but IMHO, it's a pretty good compromise. As mentioned, tubes last a LOT longer in the lower powered linestage, and you still get to play around with tube tweaks (like tube rolling and tube dampers) to further tailor your sound. In addition, if you get a tube Pre with Home Theater Bypass, you can still use a SS Pre/Pro for HT, and two-channel playback when the urge strikes.

 

[twich54]

I'm currently using a Classe 150 integrated (CAP 150) and Totem Mani 2's but am having trouble with my room and so am looking at a whole system change.

A bad room is a bad room is a bad room, chasing that with additional $$$ spent on new and different equipment is a fundemental waste of money. First and foremost address your room issues.

Take a look at "JonFo's" excellent threads on room acoustics, he just started
Volume #2.

With respect to your question regarding tubes, generally speaking todays gear is very user friendly. Many power amps offer auto bias and those that don't manual biasing is quite easy. FWIW, I love the tube sound with my Logans, others do not. So with that being said...let your ears decide !

Oh...one other thing ....Welcome !

 

[aliveatfive]

You have to hear the tube magic on Mls to understand what the fuss is about. I'm a proponent of Audio Research, but there are many others to choose from and some that are quite a bit less expensive. A lot of new tube stuff comes from China and does not cost an arm and a leg.

 

[SundayNiagara]

I'm nervous about going tube. Can you hear when the tubes go out? Is there enough juice to drive an electostatic? Can you go solid state amp with plenty of backbone and then get a nice tube pre and accomplish 90% of the sound with that?

I'm currently using a Classe 150 integrated (CAP 150) and Totem Mani 2's but am having trouble with my room and so am looking at a whole system change.

If you own a high-performance car, don't you need to maintain it?

 

[amey01]

You need to listen and decide if valve sound is for you or not. Valve amps have different characteristics, some good, some not so good - it is not just a matter of "bunging a tube somewhere in the signal path" and getting "valve magic".

That said, a valve pre and SS amp is something that a LOT of us do - me included. It gives a certain sonic signature, but if you are looking for the characteristics of a valve amp you'll have come to the wrong place. It WON'T, repeat won't get you "90% of the way there" - it will get you 100% of the way down a different path (that is, if your listening tells you that this is what you want out of a system). A valve amp will get you 100% the way down a completely different path.

Hope that makes things a little clearer. But you've got to listen and decide what you want for yourself - if you don't, chances are you'll end up in exactly the same place - with a set of components that simply don't do it for you. Sorry - there's no shortcut!!

As for valve amp maintenance, maintaining a pre is a lot easier. They tend not not require constant biasing, and the tubes also tend to last a lot longer. Yes, you can hear when a valve is going, but I don't let it get to that stage. The other advantage of a valve pre is that the valves are a lot cheaper (and less of them) - I tend to repalce them before they reach the end of their life!

 

[mikesinger]

i wont run tube amps - too much hassle. however, small signal tubes are a lot less hassle.

my current setup is pretty darn good and reliable. (ss amps, hybrid pre, and tube dac)

 

[MiTT]

I don't understand why people are so concerned about the maintenance aspect of tubes. I've had tubes in CD players, DAC's, pre-amps, headphone amps, phono stages and power amps over the past 15 years or so. So far I've replaced a grand total of 8 tubes in the monoblock Rogue power amps I used to own. I have a spare set of tubes for my BAT pre-amp, but they don't need replacing still after almost 8 years in the system.

Modern tubed components don't require a whole lot more maintenance than any other component in your system. I spend more time cleaning contacts and vacuuming electrostatic panels than I do replacing tubes.

As to the sound, well, I agree with Amey01, you need to decide for yourself in your system with your music. Personally, I will always have tubes in the signal path of my own systems.

 

[slowGEEZR]

Tim nailed it. Though I've only had tubes for a few years, I can say that the tubed equipment I have has been almost as easy to live with as my transistor equipment. The only tube replacement I've done was to replace one defective tube (free replacement) and roll a couple of tubes, just to hear the difference. Biasing on my amp is done once every 6 months and is as easy as turning a screw until a light comes on, child's play. I've done nothing to my ten tube phono amp. It's just like having a transistor phono amp, only I get the sound I like.

 

[marlin]

Go Tube/SS

I use the power from my Cary SLI-80 for the stat panels, divide the output signal from it between a MacIntosh 7270 and a Depth sub.
That makes the panels sing and also have tube pre-amplification for the base driven by the Mac.
It sounds great.
Good luck

 

[SundayNiagara]

I don't understand why people are so concerned about the maintenance aspect of tubes. I've had tubes in CD players, DAC's, pre-amps, headphone amps, phono stages and power amps over the past 15 years or so. So far I've replaced a grand total of 8 tubes in the monoblock Rogue power amps I used to own. I have a spare set of tubes for my BAT pre-amp, but they don't need replacing still after almost 8 years in the system.

Modern tubed components don't require a whole lot more maintenance than any other component in your system. I spend more time cleaning contacts and vacuuming electrostatic panels than I do replacing tubes.

As to the sound, well, I agree with Amey01, you need to decide for yourself in your system with your music. Personally, I will always have tubes in the signal path of my own systems.

Post of the day!

 

[sebrof2000]

Dude, you live in F-l-o-r-i-d-a.
Stick with solid state

 

[Craig]

Dude, you live in F-l-o-r-i-d-a.
Stick with solid state

A powerful solid state amp gets hot too. If you want a cool amp then use a D-class amp. I live in Florida and a hot amp only matters in a small room and the heat of a tube preamp is insignificant. Unlike an SS amp, tube amps aren't typically left on when not in use which only helps the electric bill. Also, we live in the lightning state so in the summer when I'm no using my system I usually unplug everything to avoid the possibility of lightning surge. An SS amp can take some time to warmup and sound its best while a tube amp only takes 15-30 minutes at most.

 

[SundayNiagara]

I still don't understand why some people are still intimidated by tubes. I guess these old myths will live forever. Anyone using a Koetsu with late-model ARC gear?

 

[sebrof2000]

A powerful solid state amp gets hot too. If you want a cool amp then use a D-class amp. I live in Florida and a hot amp only matters in a small room and the heat of a tube preamp is insignificant. Unlike an SS amp, tube amps aren't typically left on when not in use which only helps the electric bill. Also, we live in the lightning state so in the summer when I'm no using my system I usually unplug everything to avoid the possibility of lightning surge. An SS amp can take some time to warmup and sound its best while a tube amp only takes 15-30 minutes at most.

I had a 50 wpc integrated (4 EL34s) and it got pretty hot in my small room. Since my Air Conditioning is on about 10 months out of the year it was definately an issue for me. My 75wpc SS integrated doesn't get anywhere near as hot.
I was just mentioning another (negative) point re: tubes - There are enough of you guys telling him how great they are

 

[Craig]

Bill,
There are many ways to skin a cat (although it's frowned upon in many counties). You live just down the road from me so why not come over sometime and hear MLs driven by tube/SS at my place? They each have their pros/cons but the differences are small with the good stuff. I assure you will hear a much better demo of MLs than what you will get in any store in this area. However, there are some good ML dealers in this town.

We're due for another Tampa ML get-together anyway or meeting at my place and you can meet the Tampa ML gang. Send me a PM.

 

[aliveatfive]

I still don't understand why some people are still intimidated by tubes. I guess these old myths will live forever. Anyone using a Koetsu with late-model ARC gear?

Using a Sky-Blue with the following ARC components:
Ref 3
Ref 110
PH 7

 

[Webinattor]

Yes -


Like golf, stereo equipment is nothing more than various levels of dissatisfaction.

Erik

This is an excellent observation and is exactly where I find myself these days. Ha.

 

[SundayNiagara]

Using a Sky-Blue with the following ARC components:
Ref 3
Ref 110
PH 7

Man, I'd sure like to hear it. What table/arm?