System upgrade questions

[BadaBing11]

Hi everyone, Im pretty new here , but have owned MLs for 8 years now.

I am awed by the experience on this forum and i come to you asking for advice on an upgrade to my system. So, to start, here's what I have:

Denon 3910 SACD/CD/DVD with solid state modifications by Alex Peychev
Bryston BP25 preamp
Bryston 4BSST amp
Audioquest Granite biwire
ML Ascents
Energy EPS 150 sub.

Current system description : very detailed, great imaging, neutral in sound, maybe even "clinical" The mods to the Denon warmed it up a bit and increased the soundstage. Can sometimes cause listeners fatigue

What I want to accomplish: I heard Oddysees with a very comparable cd player (we a/b'd them) and a Sunfire HT 200 x 5 amp and the Cary SLP 98 preamp. This thing sounded very full , the bass differential was night and day compared to the owners previous Sunfire solid state preamp. I could not believe how much better the entire bass / mid bass range was . The detail was a little less than my system on the highs (bass and mids were outstanding), but I thought the tonal quality was more appealing, never fatigued no matter what the volume. Did not need the Descent subwoofer at all IMHO.

So Option 1 is to replace the Bryston Pre with a tube pre. Are there others out there that would match up better to a 4BSST ? I loved the sound of the Cary slp98 with the Sunfire. Is anyone using this (Cary) with a Bryston amp?

Option 2: Replace the ported Energy sub with a JL f112. Not sure, but I think my sub is a mis match for the Logans, being ported. I'm just not sure it is fast enough.

Option 3: = Option 1 + Option 2

Option 4: Please don't tell me I need to get rid of the 4BSST, or that I should use it to power the woofers and get another amp for the stats. Pockets are not deep enough for that. But if this is my weak link, I gots to know.

Help me ya'll . I was happy with what I had until I heard this setup. I can only handle either opt 1, or 2 at the moment, not both. Where would you start? If anyone knows of another tube preamp that works well with the Bryston amp, would love to hear that feedback as well.

Thanks for your help,

Bing:afro:

 

[timm]

well - I have the Cary - and I like it very much... I can not imagine it not doing 'good' things for your system. I don't know anything about the bryston pre - but imagine it is a fairly neutral piece.

 

[mosttoysrk]

Hi everyone, Im pretty new here , but have owned MLs for 8 years now.

I am awed by the experience on this forum and i come to you asking for advice on an upgrade to my system. So, to start, here's what I have:

Denon 3910 SACD/CD/DVD with solid state modifications by Alex Peychev
Bryston BP25 preamp
Bryston 4BSST amp
Audioquest Granite biwire
ML Ascents
Energy EPS 150 sub.

Current system description : very detailed, great imaging, neutral in sound, maybe even "clinical" The mods to the Denon warmed it up a bit and increased the soundstage. Can sometimes cause listeners fatigue

What I want to accomplish: I heard Oddysees with a very comparable cd player (we a/b'd them) and a Sunfire HT 200 x 5 amp and the Cary SLP 98 preamp. This thing sounded very full , the bass differential was night and day compared to the owners previous Sunfire solid state preamp. I could not believe how much better the entire bass / mid bass range was . The detail was a little less than my system on the highs (bass and mids were outstanding), but I thought the tonal quality was more appealing, never fatigued no matter what the volume. Did not need the Descent subwoofer at all IMHO.

So Option 1 is to replace the Bryston Pre with a tube pre. Are there others out there that would match up better to a 4BSST ? I loved the sound of the Cary slp98 with the Sunfire. Is anyone using this (Cary) with a Bryston amp?

Option 2: Replace the ported Energy sub with a JL f112. Not sure, but I think my sub is a mis match for the Logans, being ported. I'm just not sure it is fast enough.

Option 3: = Option 1 + Option 2

Option 4: Please don't tell me I need to get rid of the 4BSST, or that I should use it to power the woofers and get another amp for the stats. Pockets are not deep enough for that. But if this is my weak link, I gots to know.

Help me ya'll . I was happy with what I had until I heard this setup. I can only handle either opt 1, or 2 at the moment, not both. Where would you start? If anyone knows of another tube preamp that works well with the Bryston amp, would love to hear that feedback as well.

Thanks for your help,

Bing:afro:

Sell the Ascents and get a pair of CLS's. I had a pair of Quests and went through 3 amplifiers and preamps as well as CD players and a Descent sub and the most impressive difference for me was going to the CLS's.

 

[Rich]

I think a good tube pre like the Cary would help your system a lot. I also know for a fact that the Ascents sound incredible biamped with a solid state amp on the woofers and a tube amp on the panels. I understand your reluctance to go that route due to cost, but I think it would transform your system. The only time I have experienced listening fatigue with my Ascents was when I had them hooked up to a cheap SS amp.

I know the Bryston is a quality SS amp . . . but it just may not be the best amp for those speakers in your particular setup if you are experiencing fatigue. I would definitely try to audition some tube amps or preamps to see how you feel about the sonic differences.

 

[David Matz]

I used to run my Ascents with a Bryston 4B ST. Bryston is not the best amp out there for the reasons you mention - analytical, non-musical, over-detailed to some ears. This is magnified with a Bryston preamp. However, the 4B is not your weakest link. In fact, you are probably one of the few folks out there in the audiophile world that probably has enough power to run their speakers, IMO.


My suggestions for upgrades to get a more "musical" sonic signature would be:

1. Tubed preamp to change your sonic signature. Try the Cary in your own system, but also try other brands such as BAT, ARC, CJ, etc.

2. Get some room treatments and put them in every corner of the room and at as many wall/ floor and wall/ ceiling intersections as you can. This will make the bass more articulate and clean up the midrange and highs as well.

3. Upgrade the source.

Finally, when you get more cash, upgrade the Bryston. You really need to spend b/w $8K-$12K (new, about half of that used) to get a wold class SS amp, IMO. The best ones I have heard are CJ 350 and Ayre V1.

Enjoy!

 

[BadaBing11]

I was hoping it wasn't going to be a do over on the amp cause it seems like a bottomless pit when it comes to power.

Just fyi, My listening area is very large. That is why I thought maybe the sub wasn't adequate. Thought maybe the room dynamics may be sucking up the bass / mid bass. The room is about 35 x 35. The location of the setup is hard to describe without a drawing, but I experimented for a very long time to get the set up optimized to my room.

I think I'll try baby steps and audition a tube pre to see what kind of delta I get. That seems like the general concensus on where to start.

I'm a bit choked up that it seems like the Bryston Bsst may be a mismatch. It really is not that far off the mark. Actually I thought it was near perfect before I heard the Cary Pre on Logans. But, the journey is about to start up again. The research is most of the fun for me anyway.

Thanks all for your thoughts, much appreciated.

Bing

 

[wings]

Cables

You might want to try a different set of speaker cables to soften the high end, or move up in the Audioquest chain.
I have had quite a few speakers over the years and all they sounded different with each cables I tried. You don't have to go crazy either, there are some very nice cables for not too much $$ out there, especially used.

 

[MOON]

Hi Bing,

I would first probably suggest adding a tube pre. The Athetix calyspo is a good tubed pre and are on agon quite often. I switched from a Bryston BP25 and 4BST to Simaudio MOON and found it bettered the Bryston equipment in every aspect, soundstage, low lebel detail , airy high's and in musicality in general mated with martin logans.

David suggested room treatment, good sugestion. I just added some ACS tube traps 16x78 inches to all 4 corners which made the world of difference.

Cheers, Greg

 

[tonepub]

Id definitely start with the bass traps....

 

[BadaBing11]

Well, last night I experimented some by following the suggestions and putting room treatments in strategic areas. I also moved my listening position forward about 3 ft because I thought I might be getting reflection of some columns I have "boxed in" with drywall. I think the two combined really helped tame things some as the "fatigue" did not set in. So I'm headed in the right direction.

I think I will still demo the tube preamps.

I'll have to give my wife some time to get used to the new furniture setup before I throw down any cash. I give it 2 to 3 months before she stops complaining

Thanks for all the suggestions,

Bing:afro:

 

[Dominick22]

Just another option for you because I have Ascent i's and it sounds like we were looking for same thing.

As far as the amp goes, I run mono 1000 watt amps from Emotiva. They are great. I have listened in length to the big Krell heavy hitters and always aspired to get one. The emotiva's are $1000 a piece vs. 8k-12 as mentioned before. I am not saying they are eaqual to Krell although possibly, but the difference at best is small and the krell advantages are not reflective of a 1000% increase in cost... for me anyway.

I also like the tube pre so what I did was get the Grant tube preamp that gets it input from my ss preamp. The signal goes cd-ss preamp-tube preamp-mono amps-bi wire ascent i.

I have been very pleased with what the grant did for the sound. It can be turned off and will let the ss signal pass through also. I do a/b tests for people all the time. The reactions are amazing. The great thing is it can be turned on while the music playing so it is very obvious when it kicks on how it changes the sound.

Anyway, I am telling you because they are Very cheap to get. Its just 2 tubes and a transformer basically. And it is compatible with many different tubes.

I like it a ton. This thing cost less than my wires and now I wont listen to my ascents without it.

Bought mine for $150.
I think there is a newer model now for $175.
Grantfidelity.com

Good luck
Dominick