System #55 (Expression 13A's)

[churchill]

Nice upgrade! Looks great!

 

[sleepysurf]

Updated main system pics at top.

I've recently integrated my old NHT Sub Two into my stereo setup (formerly used only for Home Theater), placing it along a mid side wall to test my hypothesis that it would smooth the ~60 Hz null in my bass response. The subsequent XTZ Room Analyzer measurement (below), confirms it will (even without "dialing in"). I now have a BalancedForce 210 sub on order. I expect the PBK, along with the custom Summit filter, will further smooth my low/mid bass. Will post additional measurements and pics once the upgrade is complete.

 

[Audioseduction]

That's going to be sweet Alan! Don't forget to call me over for a listening session.

 

[Bernard]

What happened to that much-promised "further review"?

 

[sleepysurf]

What happened to that much-promised "further review"?

Oops, guess I forgot about it! I still have the CT-5, if that's any indication!

I will post a full system update once I get my BalancedForce 210, complete with XTZ Room Analyzer plots, and the requisite audiophile prose.

 

[sleepysurf]

Added 2nd BF 210 sub to my setup, running both as Dual Mono subs (2nd daisy-chained to first), and relocated both behind the listening position/couch. After new sub breaks in, will run PBK and XTZ, and post latest findings. Already sounding much better than prior single BF210 along mid side wall!

 

[sleepysurf]

Here's the initial XTZ Full Range measurement for my ML Expressions (after ARC applied). As before (with my Summits) I have a room bass null at ~50 Hz, which I hope to fill in with my dual BF210's, without "muddying up" the otherwise pristine tight bass I'm getting with the Expressions alone.

 

[JonFo]

Hi Alan, that looks pretty good for just the mains alone. I think you are right that the 2 BF210's will help fill in that null and provide much better overall low-bass.

Will you run full-time bass management and only feed the Expressions >80Hz?

Will you PBK each sub independently?

Cheers,

 

[sleepysurf]

Hi Alan, that looks pretty good for just the mains alone. I think you are right that the 2 BF210's will help fill in that null and provide much better overall low-bass.

Will you run full-time bass management and only feed the Expressions >80Hz?

Will you PBK each sub independently?

Cheers,

I previously tried the BF210's as dual mono, using the (downloaded) crossover filter for the Expressions woofers set at -10 db. That filled in the room null, but the bass was somewhat "muddier." Next up, I'll run the Expressions full range with the respective BF210 crossover filters, and compare single vs. dual mono vs. stereo sub configuration (each sub PBK'd individually). I suspect a single sub is really all I'll need. Time will tell! Lots of "permutations" to try!

 

[sleepysurf]

Voila! Running the subs as a stereo pair worked wonders! Required a bit of manual adjustments (beyond just using PBK and downloaded filters) for overall smoothest bass response, but the result is spectacular!



In retrospect, I realize it was futile to run the subs as dual mono, when the Expressions are running full-range stereo. That's why I kept getting somewhat muddy bass (even with my Summits)! I'm still going to separately "tweak" each subs volume (phase too, if indicated) but I'm already 99% of where I want to be!

If anybody else is trying to use 2 or more subs with ML's running full-range, I strongly suggest configuring them for stereo (vs. dual mono).

 

[music again]

Where were you able pick up an Oppo UDP-205?

 

[sleepysurf]

Where were you able pick up an Oppo UDP-205?

I had signed up at Oppo to get one from their final production runs. Not sure if they're still taking orders.

 

[music again]

I had signed up at Oppo to get one from their final production runs. Not sure if they're still taking orders.

Thanks. I must have missed the email from them because I was on their emailing list. I do have their 105 but should have traded up to the 205 when it came out as I did with all of their other previous models.

Your system is one of my favorites. Great job of putting your system together!

 

[sleepysurf]

Replaced my old StudioTech rack with a Salamander Archetype rack in black (with optional casters), as needed infinitely adjustable shelves to accommodate my new Oppo 205. Took a while to adjust the shelf spacing and get them leveled, but very happy with it. It's surprisingly sturdy, and rotates easily on the casters to allow back panel and cable access. I'll update my overall system pic soon, but here's a peek at the new rack.

 

[JonFo]

Lookin' good there Alan, congrats!

 

[sleepysurf]

The new forum software no longer allows edits of old posts, so here's the latest pic of my Family Room system (after some new furniture and paint color). Next upgrade might be the new Anthem MRX 740 receiver, which would allow me to apply ARC Genesis to entire system (including dual subs) as a whole.

 

[Robert D]

The new forum software no longer allows edits of old posts, so here's the latest pic of my Family Room system (after some new furniture and paint color). Next upgrade might be the new Anthem MRX 740 receiver, which would allow me to apply ARC Genesis to entire system (including dual subs) as a whole.

View attachment 21061

How do you run the inputs to the subwoofers all the way back there over the hardwood? How do you conceal them? Did you drill some holes and run them under the floor?

 

[sleepysurf]

How do you run the inputs to the subwoofers all the way back there over the hardwood? How do you conceal them? Did you drill some holes and run them under the floor?

We have a large 8' x 10' rug in the room, and I run the cables under the rug (taped to the edge of the rug pad). There is a slight bulge, but barely visible, and not enough to trip on. There's a short run of visible cable from my equipment rack to the edge of the rug, but it's right next to the speaker, so not a problem.

Here's an older pic (when I was using line level sub cables). Currently using high level inputs from amp, which are slightly thicker (Blue Jeans) cables, but still OK from WAF standpoint.

 

[sleepysurf]

Current setup (updated 8/21)

2 Channel Audio Setup:
-Squeezebox Touch (with "Enhanced Digital Output" applet), streaming FLAC files from a 4.0 TB Synology DS920+ NAS
-Oppo UDP-205 CD/SACD/DVD/Blu-ray player (for physical media, and DLNA streamed FLAC)
-Gramovox "Floating Record" turntable/conversation piece (just for kicks!)
-Bel Canto DAC 3.5 MKII (with VBS1 power supply and reference umbilical)
-Conrad-Johnson CT5 preamp
-Conrad-Johnson Premier 350 amp (one of their rare 100% solid state models). 350W (peak 500W and 66A) into 8 ohms, 780W into 4 ohms, and up to 1600 W into 2 ohms!
-Martin-Logan Expression ESL 13A (walnut) purchased 8/16 (retrofitted with Summit X legs for 3° rake angle)
-Dual Mono ML BalancedForce 210 subs
-Audience AU24e interconnects and speaker cables
-Volex 17604 shielded power cords
-Running Springs Audio Duke 20A Conditioner (amp, preamp)
-Belkin PF60 Surge Protector/Conditioner (Squeezebox, DAC, Oppo player)

Additional components completing 5.1 setup:
-Anthem MRX 740 multi-channel receiver
-ML Motif Center Channel
-Boston Acoustics DX Pro (flush mounted in ceiling as diffuse-field surrounds)
-SurgeX XR 315 protector (for HDTV, Receiver, and Expressions)

Video:
-LG 77" OLED HDTV, wall-mounted on a cantilever Omnimount UCL-X
-Oppo UDP 205 for DVD/Blu-Ray
-YouTube TV

Acoustic Treatments/Furniture:
-Salamander Archetype rack (with castors)
-Crate & Barrel Harmony 70" media console for video/storage (with lattice sliders and removable rear panels for ventilation)
-Custom bookshelves (9" deep, with 2' inside diameter to accommodate acoustic panels if desired), their evolution discussed in this thread... Bookshelves behind speakers for absorption/diffusion?
-Single 49" x 14" ASC Tube Trap (in sole front corner of room)
-GIK Table Bass Trap (as side table)
-Jazz sculptures are from Willitt's Designs All That Jazz series ("All Night Long" and "In The Groove")

Dimensions:
-Family/Listening Room is 17' x 21' (speakers on short wall) with sloping 10-12' cathedral ceilings. Functionally, there is no back wall due to adjoining 18' x 14' kitchen. With this open floor plan, total volume >6400 cubic ft.
-ML's are currently ~4 ft from front wall (bookshelves), ~7.5 ft apart (center to center), and 4-5 ft from side walls.
-Listening position (at apex of triangle) is ~10' from speakers.

Future upgrades:
-In-ceiling rear speakers for home theater

Comments:
My foray into high-end audio began with a pair of Apogee Acoustics Stage (planar-magnetic) speakers in 1989, driven by an Adcom GFA-545II amp, and Yamaha receiver as Pre/Pro. Unfortunately, the Stages were too large for my subsequent home, so I replaced them with ML Aerius i's. As seen in the "old" Aerius setup below, the oversized wall unit and RPTV were an acoustic nightmare. Fortunately, I was able to upgrade to the Summits, and reconfigure the room in a more acoustic-friendly setup. The addition of the Modwright Pre brought "tube" warmth into my audio life, and a Belles 350 Ref amp provided pristine power for the Summit panels. In 12/08 I upgraded to Audience AU 24e speaker cables (slightly cleaner bass and smoother highs vs. my old Blue Jeans cables). With a shared Family/Listening room, acoustics have always been the weakest link. So I added a 3 ft GIK Pillar Bass Trap (in the only available corner) and a GIK Table Trap along a side wall. I also tried 2' x 4' absorption panels on the front wall, but that deadened the room too much. So, in 3/09, I added the custom bookshelves, incorporating 2' x 2' absorption panels at the bottom for bass trapping, with books providing a mix of absorption and diffusion. With this configuration, my imaging, soundstage depth, and overall tonality, have never sounded better!

And yes, I know the granite coffee table is an acoustic no-no, but it's here to stay for the near term (I cover it with pillows/blanket for serious listening). I've also started experimenting with tube-rolling, which is why the cover is off my Modwright. I'm amazed at how much tonal variation there is between different brands of NOS and current tubes, especially the rectifier. Who knew!

In 11/09 I replaced my Belles amp with the C-J Premier 350 amp, which elevated my system to an even higher level, offering extreme musical detail and power like I'd never had before. Every upgrade thus far has provided clearcut sonic improvements, but I think I've just about reached the point of diminishing returns!

In 3/10 I upgraded to a C-J CT5 preamp... still breaking in, but from a musical perspective, the CT5 is the "cat's meow."

4/11... Upgraded to the Oppo BDP-95... definitely a giant step forward vs. the older BDP-83 (now relegated to a secondary system).

6/12... Upholstered ottoman to replace reflective granite coffee table... win-win from both acoustic and WAF perspective!

10/12... Upgraded to Bel Canto DAC 3.5VB (mk II) to replace my Benchmark... significantly more musical, with live-like "presence" in the mids and highs.

3/13... Replaced carpet with engineered hardwood flooring, plus 100% wool area rug, along with full kitchen remodel behind listening position... net effect better overall dynamics with fewer reflections from kitchen ("counter height" island vs. prior "bar height")

3/14... Added a ML BalancedForce 210 sub (mid left side wall), to address a large ~60 Hz null that I couldn't otherwise eliminate, and also to better "energize" the total room volume (>6400 cu ft). NHT Sub Two will be relegated for only home theater use.

1/16... Added a 2nd BalancedForce 210 sub (running both as Dual Mono subs), and relocated both behind listening position/couch.

8/16... Replaced legacy Summits with Expression 13A's (Walnut, as ML unfortunately couldn't do custom Bubinga). Also retrofitted with Summit X legs for 3° rake angle (vs. default 5°).

11/17... Removed acoustic panels from lower bookshelves and front wall, and also removed GIK corner "pillar" bass trap. Since acquiring the Expressions, neither offered significant improvement vs. not using them (via listening tests and XTZ Room Analyzer measurements).

8/18... Oppo UDP-205 replaced Oppo BDP-95. Required rearranging rack to accommodate taller height. Replaced old StudioTech rack with (infinitely adjustable) Salamander Archetype rack.

7/19... Upgraded to 77" LG OLED HDTV, and replaced old (MOV based) Monster surge protector with SurgeX XR315 (series mode protection). Also starting Family/Listening Room redecorating. Will post updated pic after completed (probably late Aug).

12/19... Dropped cable service for YouTube TV. Getting rid of cable box eliminated longstanding struggle with ground loop hum!

12/20... Upgraded to a 4.0 TB Synology DS920+ NAS

7/21... Added single 49" tall ASC Tube Trap (behind Salamander rack, in sole front corner of room). Provides upper bass and lower midrange absorption to counter open hallway on opposite side of room, so image more centered.

8/21... Upgraded to Anthem MRX 740 seven channel receiver. Will (theoretically) allow simultaneous ARC Genesis measurements/correction of entire system (Expression's plus dual BF210's), for optimized bass, at least for Home Theater (if not 2 channel listening). TBD.

 

[amey01]

Have you thought about upgrading your SBT to a PiCorePlayer? Not much point if your DAC doesn't have USB - but still an upgraded player.