Summit's midrange

[AudioFanKJ]

I understand about varying opinions... Any and all insight is appreciated.

I was curious about the Berning ZH270 ... however it is an OTL tube amp... is this good/bad with the Summits?

Berning ZH270 amp link

I have heard zero feedback from a few on here... is that a rule of thumb?

Also, in the past, I do prefer an organic, textured midrange that tubes provide, but with the Sonic Frontiers SFS-80 I preferred KT-90's with BugleBoy 6Dj8's. With the Quicksilver V4's I also went KT-90's for their neutrality and bass control. The Cary SLM-100's seemed "syrupy" for lack of better word no matter WHAT tube, even fat bottles where the bass was uncontrolled and the mids were too lush.

Unfortunately they were all push/pull designs and I am not all that familiar with SET or otherwise...

I would like to get the nice tube midrange, without having to accept bloated bass... or not be able to listen to much other than jazz recordings and female vocals.

Any opinions and or suggestions?

Anyone hear the Prima Luna Seven monoblocks?

Prima Luna Seven Monoblock link

However, I see they have some negative feedback.

I also am intrigued by the Margules U280 SC Roberto recommended, however there is next to NO information I can find in comparisons with other "high end" tube amp manufacturers... review wise that is...

 

[Steve Daigneault]

So, the Berning is supposedly excellent. It's known for speed, neutrality, and can sometimes be considered lean. this can change with some NOS tubes, but in general, you may not get enough body from a berning. If the price was right, I might try it.

The primaluna has a good rep, but i wouldn't buy new. I think there are better values out there.

from the additional info you gave, two things:

first... buy a known brand, so you can resell it if it doesn't work out. nothing worse than being stuck with gear you don't like, and then having to take a bath because no one knows the brand. i've learned this lesson the hard way.

second... from your previous experience with tube amps, you might want to start with something that's considered middle of the road between solid state and single ended triodes. push/pull would be my pick, and again, the VAC Phi or the VAC 70/70, though expensive, would probably be my first pick. after that, my second pick would be a VTL, again, a newer model so you could resell if necessary, or, if it was an older model, a bargain price. or, a newer manley, like the mahi.

i still say listening to that manley stingray would really be helpful. then you'd have a known factor to compare it to. manley's are known to be on the more neutral side of the tube amps, so if you still felt like it wasn't enough, you'd know you needed something on the warmer side.

that said, not every amp by a manufacturer will sound the same. as i've written before here, i had/have a conrad johnson premier 140 that i thought would be warm, feared it might be too warm, because it was a conrad johnson. wrong. this amp was very neutral, in fact, sounded sterile at times. at least to these ears.

VAC Phi or 70/70, VTL ST150 or MB450/300, Manley Mahi... those would be the amps I look for first.

 

[AudioFanKJ]

Steve,

Yeah, all very good info. Upon further insight on the Berning, and although it has an almost cult like following, it appears it may be a bit lean sounding and perhaps not the voicing I am looking for.

I spoke with quite a few people, and although a few here are using SET's on the Summits, I was curently cosidering the following two monoblocks:

Manley Snapper
PrimaLuna ProLogue Sevens

I am trying to get a bit more info on the Sevens, and after I tweak placement and get over 500 hours of break in on the Summits, I think a friend may bring over his Manley Stingray, in which would give a great idea on how the Summits would sound with the Manley mono's.

Any other suggestions? I was all ready to jump on a Cary 805 or the ASL 1009, or the like... an 845 amp, but talking with some respected dealers of much tube gear, they felt it may not be the best match.

I think the most revealing will be hearing the speakers with the Manley Stingray.

 

[Steve Daigneault]

Steve,

Yeah, all very good info. Upon further insight on the Berning, and although it has an almost cult like following, it appears it may be a bit lean sounding and perhaps not the voicing I am looking for.

I spoke with quite a few people, and although a few here are using SET's on the Summits, I was curently cosidering the following two monoblocks:

Manley Snapper
PrimaLuna ProLogue Sevens

I am trying to get a bit more info on the Sevens, and after I tweak placement and get over 500 hours of break in on the Summits, I think a friend may bring over his Manley Stingray, in which would give a great idea on how the Summits would sound with the Manley mono's.

Any other suggestions? I was all ready to jump on a Cary 805 or the ASL 1009, or the like... an 845 amp, but talking with some respected dealers of much tube gear, they felt it may not be the best match.

I think the most revealing will be hearing the speakers with the Manley Stingray.

i love the cary's on my vantages, but my room is small, and it may be too far over to the warm side of the spectrum. i think the bass amp in the logans take their signal from the amp as well, and the cary's bass is not as tight as i'd like, and i'm sure you'd find it loose.

of the two you've listed, i'd go with the manley's in a heartbeat. the primaluna's are new, unknown. i'd be open to them if i could return them (if new), or if they were being sold used at an excellent price.

i think the thing to be open about is that you're auditioning the amp, you may not like the amp you end up auditioning, so you'll want a way out, relatively cost-free, so you can audition a different amp if you need to. if you were goign to go for a cary 805c, then i'd think you have the means to go for the VAC Phi, which i dont think would leave your system once you heard it.

 

[AudioFanKJ]

Steve,

I must first say, I have now logged a bit over 550 hours of play time on the Summits, and the highs have opened up and extended quite a bit, most noticable on brushed cymbals and shimmer/decay of cymbals. The mids have progressed. I wouldn't quite say fleshed out, yet they seem to be more open. One day dynamics seem to be lacking (from the panels... no problem with the woofers) and the next day dynamics seem to be fine. Perhaps this is a break in issue as well.

For what it's worth, I am running my speakers through a balanced line conditioner (BPT 3.5 Sig Plus) so I am not sure if that would slow down the breakin or not?

I totally agree with you Steve. I have a pair of tube amps on the way for audition. They are the PrimaLuna ProLogue Seven monoblocks. I do have the option to return, as well as the option to return and purchase of the Manley Snappers, or other amps, etc. But really, this will especially answer some questions in my head. This audition will provide plenty of answers as to system matching, as well as the current amps (500 wpc into 4 Ohms) versus the tube monoblocks.

I am honestly hoping it is a night/day dramatic difference - it there is one. *grins* If the tubes are going to sound better, I want it to be a match made in heaven. If it is just "slightly" better in this aspect, yet "slightly" worse in another... then it really isn't going to make much sense... obviously I guess.

If all goes well, I think the amps are slated to arrive here on Tuesday.

Will keep you posted...

 

[Steve Daigneault]

was wondering how things are coming with auditioning other amps. let us know how the prima luna works. they look like nice monoblocks. did you also get the snappers? I do think the difference will be night and day...

 

[6BX7GT]

Hi guys, im the new kid in this cyberblock.
I can suggest a tube preamplifier with a ss amplifier.
Tube amplifiers are impedance dependant and use them can be a guesswork.
The Martin Logans are a hard load you know that.

Roberto, the Margules U280 dont work with Martin Logan, these amplifier is sensible to load impedance.
It dont be a Class A amplifier, has a circuit like a Super Class A of technics , or like Krell Bias , it is an AB amplifier modified.
Third point I see the U280 underwear , and only see comercial to generic parts.

A friend, Javier, have two U280 in mono, but the ML dont give all that can be.

Excuse my english buddies.

 

[roberto]

Hi guys, im the new kid in this cyberblock.
I can suggest a tube preamplifier with a ss amplifier.
Tube amplifiers are impedance dependant and use them can be a guesswork.
The Martin Logans are a hard load you know that.

Roberto, the Margules U280 dont work with Martin Logan, these amplifier is sensible to load impedance.
It dont be a Class A amplifier, has a circuit like a Super Class A of technics , or like Krell Bias , it is an AB amplifier modified.
Third point I see the U280 underwear , and only see comercial to generic parts.

A friend, Javier, have two U280 in mono, but the ML dont give all that can be.

Excuse my english buddies.

Hola 6BX7GT. So what you are saying it that this is not true:...

"Tube amplifier U280sc Pure Class A, tube audio amplifier, with Active bias o Servo-controled output stage, does not require at any time bias adjustments. High precision regulated voltage in the input and inverter tubes, active damping control, bias meter, 60W/channel, can work triode or ultralinear, among other things can work either as a mono or stereo.The main design attribute is its great versatility, variable output impedance, independent gain control for each channel, precision metal film resistors, polypropylene capacitors, etc. 4 output tubes, can use 6550, KT99, KT88, KT100."...

Remember that the Summits have a sensitivity of 92dBs/2.83 V./m. Did you listen the Summits with it?...I think that the sound is great!...very good image, right in timbre, very good with vocals, and classical solo instruments are the best...very good dynamics with outstanding size of the instruments and the air between them. Cymbals are clean and very precise, without overbright and right location with super great 3-Dimentional scenario. Remember, this is my liking, and not necessary yours...with all respect, I don´t know what is the problem with your friend´s monoblocks, but it seems that something is not working right there. Also, you don´t have to like the Margules, as I do. Happy listening,
Pura vida,
Roberto.

 

[6BX7GT]

The maximun rating of a 6550 or KT88 pair in pure class A is 30 watts in pentode mode and 15 watt in triode.
For >30 watts the class of amplification is AB or B.
The U 280 have a polarization of class AB but the servo dont left that the switching happen, but this no is a true class A
A true class A amplifier have a power comsuption of 3 to 4 times the output power, a stereo 60 watts pure class A have a constant comsuption of 360 Watts + the energy of filaments , each 6550 burn 9 watts x 4 6550 add 36 watts more, the constant power comsuption will be 400 watts.
I ear the u280 in thiel 3.6, b&w 801, Avalon Eidolon, ML SL3 and Prodigy.
the SL3 have 2 U280 en mono , one for panel, and fail, the sound is tin.
the U280 dont handle hard loads, at any level.Javier sell his pair of U280.

 

[ovature]

This is ridiculous. There should be no compromises on the mid-range at the price point of the Summit. After 550 hours what you hear is what you've got and that satisfying chesty sound of the old line is gone. They might as well be selling us jukeboxes now!

 

[Reverb2009]

This is ridiculous. There should be no compromises on the mid-range at the price point of the Summit. After 550 hours what you hear is what you've got and that satisfying chesty sound of the old line is gone. They might as well be selling us jukeboxes now!

Your right,

This is ridiculous.

All you unhappy Summit and Vantage owners should sell your speaker to me right now and go out and pick up the older models for bargain prices. I mean yes it does take some work to get them to sound right and you need to pair them with the right electronics to sound there best, but hay! I am here to help you. So box them up and send them to me. Hell I will even trade you a set of Ascents for those worth less peaces of junk, out of the kindness of my hart.

 

[amey01]

What has got me stumped is who spends that sort of money on speakers before listening to them?

If you heard them (and liked them enough to buy them) in the shop, and now they sound disappointing in your home, you obviously have to work on your room acoustics and/or placement.

If you didn't listen to them in the shop you've made a very expensive mistake - I can take them off your hands!

 

[ovature]

Your right,

This is ridiculous.

All you unhappy Summit and Vantage owners should sell your speaker to me right now and go out and pick up the older models for bargain prices. So box them up and send them to me. Hell I will even trade you a set of Ascents for those worth less peaces of junk, out of the kindness of my hart.

And I'll send you a free DICTIONARY so you can learn how to SPELL!!!!!

 

[ovature]

This is ridiculous. There should be no compromises on the mid-range at the price point of the Summit. After 550 hours what you hear is what you've got and that satisfying chesty sound of the old line is gone. They might as well be selling us jukeboxes now!

YEAH.................junky jukeboxes with bad veneered cabinets

 

[Craig]

There should be no compromises on the mid-range at the price point of the Summit.

My summits aren't compromised on the mid-range. I don't hear what a few others are talking about. All the midrange is there along with more highs and lows compared to the older speakers.

What has got me stumped is who spends that sort of money on speakers before listening to them?

I did. I bought my pair sight unseen/unheard and they are have been the best speakers I've ever heard. I got a great deal on them and I'm very happy with them. It was a decision based on enough information and confidence in this line of ML products and it resulted in a good choice. Auditioning Summits was not possible at the time so I auditioned it the Vantages a few times at different stores and was very confident that the Summits would be even better and they did not dissapoint.

Why room acoustics are important -

Dipole Sound Radiation

Dipole sound radiation emits sound from both the front and back of the speake (Clarity shown)


The sound we hear from a loudspeaker is a combination of direct radiation from it to our ears and reflections off of room surfaces – walls, floor, and ceiling. How our brains integrate all this information is far from simple. Depending on the angle of incidence to the ears and the arrival-time difference between direct and reflected sound, reflections can either blur detail and stereo imaging or enhance the natural impression of depth and openness.

True dipole speakers, such as electrostatic panels, have long been noted for their near-ideal radiation patterns. They send very little sound to the sides, thereby minimizing side-wall reflections with short arrival times that tend to interfere with perception of the direct sound. Their strong rear radiation, however, produces a generous amount of ambience-enriching later-arriving reflections off the wall behind them."

As I progressively tune my room the sound improves in small increments. I have 3 more acoustic panels to make and install plus a pair of bass traps. The best speaker isn't going to sound its best until the room sounds its best. I liked a statement I read today about the new Stage Center Channel.

"In the end, a speaker cannot outperform the signal feeding it. "

Midrange comes from the electronics as well as the speakers.

Overture is the guy in the audio store who pushes in the tweeter dome with his finger when no one is looking!

 

[ovature]

[Overture is the guy in the audio store who pushes in the tweeter dome with his finger when no one is looking![/QUOTE]

Wrong! I'm the guy who handles everything with white gloves. You're the guy who drops 8 grand on a blind item. My local dealer wants to sell his demo summits for $6500 and he can't give them away because he says they suck. I think the new line is ugly and it sounds like garbage for 2 channel; it's fine for HT and I've heard them(Summit, vantage, vista) in multiple locations. I think you bought a pig in a poke!!!!

 

[ovature]

Now you're just being an ass.

An ass? We all have an ass, don't we? But more important what ML speaker do we own so we can sit our collective ***** down and listen! Dictionary included free!!

 

[Rik_Rankin]

Well I do not have Summits but I do hate the rake on my SL3s. I have mine proped up as perpendicular as posible to the floor. I think it makes a difference. I think it might help the Summits too.

Just turn the spikes all the way up in the back. It works

 

[roberto]

Just turn the spikes all the way up in the back. It works

Hola...with all respect, I assure you that there is a reason why the stat panels are like lay back and not standing strait. These array is from ML team design and not because they like it this way to look nicer. If you make them too forward, the highs are lost...happy listening,
Roberto.

 

[Statman]

Hola...with all respect, I assure you that there is a reason why the stat panels are like lay back and not standing strait. These array is from ML team design and not because they like it this way to look nicer. If you make them too forward, the highs are lost...happy listening,
Roberto.

Roberto,
That depends on your seated position. They started that with the change from Sequel II's to the SL3 model. My buddy who has SL3's and I compared the two. They went away from that theory with the Ascent, Odyssey, and Prodigy models, now it's returned with the Vantage and Summit models.