Summit Spike Decision

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Gordon,

Great to hear. Is your measurement of 91.5' from the front of the panel? Curious so I can do the same A/B/A test. I will be using a digital protractor (of course!) for this measurement. It is actually accurate +/- .001". Overkill? You bet. I love it!:D

Hi Jason,

Not exactly sure what you are asking. The panel tilt is now 1.5 degrees clockwise from perpindicular or 90 degrees. I don't have digital protractor (sounds dangerous) :eek: but I calculated the angle using some basic math measuring the two legs of a right triangle. If you divide the horizontal offset from 90 degrees (0.1') by the vertical distance (3.71' measured from the top of the panel to the top of the woofer module) and calculate the "tan -1" (I think that's called the arctangent) you get the offset angle.

I also rechecked both speakers to make sure they are exactly at the same tilt angle using a "weighted" string and my laser level.

Took the day off today. Was up till 11:30 last night doing you know what. I listened to some more music this morning (Holly Cole and Patricia Barber).

Having a hard time putting my arms around how utterly profound the change is with the new tilt angle. May have to install a seatbelt on my listening chair. I guess that's a good thing.

One thing you and Sleepy might check for me. I measured the distance from the wood floor to the bottom of the woofer module and found a difference of 1/4" between the left and right speaker. Not sure why that is since I'm confident that both panels have the same tilt angle.

G :musicnote:
 
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Summits, Spikes, and all things nice!

My spikes arrived yesterday. Cajoled my long-suffering wife into balancing the speakers so I could slip these bad boys on. I had previously experimented with placing some Golden Sound DH squares which added about 1/2 " to the standard spikes at full extension in the rear. These made an audible improvement in imaging so I knew that I was in for something with the new longer spikes.
It did not take very long to hear the better soundstaging and more natural sound highs and mids. I am still playing with angling but I think that this depends a great deal on seated height and actual distance from the panels. I am about 10' away from mine and listen from a semi-recliner.
What is most gratifying is that this is a relatively inexpensive tweak that improves sound staging and is easy to install.
I also have all of speakers on SoundGuard bases which lift them off the floor an additional 2", control bass vibration, and make them easier to align than on carpet. The woofers are also able to breathe better.
Those with ML Summits on carpeted floors might consider a subplatform option as I found that this helped with low-end clarity a great deal.
I also have my 4 Descents on platforms.
 
Hi Jason,

Not exactly sure what you are asking. The panel tilt is now 1.5 degrees clockwise from perpindicular or 90 degrees. I don't have digital protractor (sounds dangerous) :eek: but I calculated the angle using some basic math measuring the two legs of a right triangle. If you divide the horizontal offset from 90 degrees (0.1') by the vertical distance (3.71' measured from the top of the panel to the top of the woofer module) and calculate the "tan -1" (I think that's called the arctangent) you get the offset angle.

I also rechecked both speakers to make sure they are exactly at the same tilt angle using a "weighted" string and my laser level.

Took the day off today. Was up till 11:30 last night doing you know what. I listened to some more music this morning (Holly Cole and Patricia Barber).

Having a hard time putting my arms around how utterly profound the change is with the new tilt angle. May have to install a seatbelt on my listening chair. I guess that's a good thing.

One thing you and Sleepy might check for me. I measured the distance from the wood floor to the bottom of the woofer module and found a difference of 1/4" between the left and right speaker. Not sure why that is since I'm confident that both panels have the same tilt angle.

G :musicnote:


Gordon,

It all makes sense to me now. Did you change anything in the setup today or is it the same as above? I will measure my woofer when time permits.
 
babydoc, do you have a link and/or picture of these SoundGuard platforms?
They would be hard to see in my system since they are completely covered by the speakers. I bought them from the Cable Company in New Hope, PA. their webite is www.fatwyre.com and their phone 1-800-328-9973 (FAT-WYRE). John is the salesperson that I use there. I am not certain that they are still being made but he could answer that for sure.
 
No change

Gordon,

It all makes sense to me now. Did you change anything in the setup today or is it the same as above? I will measure my woofer when time permits.

Hi Jason,

Haven't changed the tilt. It just sounds to darn good to touch ANYTHING. I told my dog "Dude" that, if he sees me making any adjustments, he has my permission to bite me. :eek:

GG ;)
 
Discovered another benefit of the tilt tweak. Before using Jason's spikes, I needed "extreme toe-in" (like Joey), in order to "lock in" the image at my sweet spot. Now, with the panels almost vertical, I found the imaging actually improved when I went back to "slight" toe-in. Just another example of how all these tweaks create a "domino effect" with one another. Unfortunately, now I think I'm getting a hernia from constantly repositioning the Summits over the past few days!

This leads me to another idea. It would be cool to have a granite (or perhaps wood) base for the Summits, that has a teflon (or polymer) coating on the underside, to allow it to slide easily on carpet, like these sliding pads available for moving furniture... http://www.asseenontv.com/prod-pages/Movingmen.html.

Once the ideal speaker position is found, you would then screw in OUTBOARD SPIKES ON THE BASE (raising it slightly) to firmly anchor it to the floor substrate. You would still use Jasons spikes for the "tilt adjustment" and to anchor the Summit to the granite base. This would also make it a LOT easier to slide the Summits out of the way, as needed, from time to time.

OK Jason and Tgun5, how 'bout joining forces on the design! :D
 
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Ordered my spikes from Jason - looking forward to hearing the difference :)
Marc
 
I sent him a PM and never got a response. I could do it alone though. It's all easy just takes two things...

Lemme guess... time and $$!

For me, the rate-limiting step for something like this would be WAF!
 
I have now managed the time to listen a bit since installing Jason's RaceSpikes (TM?). I used 8 rather than 4 and have not yet played with tilt. The spikes did seem to improve image and soundstage height which is why I bought them. Midbass was tightened (a good thing) and low bass was slightly diminished. I plan to play with tilt at some point and will also play with the bass settings on my Summits. This leaves a narrow sweet spot as my major remaining ***** about the Summits relative to my previous reference Apogee Divas. Does changing the panel angle affect the size of he sweet spot? What is the easiest way to measure the panel angle and ensure they are equal (for math dummies like me)?
 
I bought a Denali Digital Protractor to measure tilt...
http://www.amazon.com/Denali-Inch-Digital-Angle-Protractor/dp/B000HDK6RM

As for the sweet spot... electrostatics, by nature, have a narrower sweet spot than other designs (including some "wider" planar/ribbon designs like Apogee Acoustics- I used to own a pair of Stages). However, with a bit of effort, you should be able to find your optimal positioning for best balance of image width and detail. Toe-in, and distance between the speakers and to the listening position are the main variables. I've found that changing the tilt does not DIRECTLY alter the sweet spot width, but CAN improve soundstage depth and detail with varying different degrees of toe-in.

You just need to invest some time and effort experimenting with slight, moderate, or extreme, toe-in. Having some sort of "sliding" base for the Summits would sure help with experimenting, but probably NOT worth the time and $$ to manufacture (despite Jason's gracious offer!).
 
Thanks sleepysurf-I'll check out the website. My Summits are already spiked on BDR pucks so are easily movable. The sweetspot issue is primarily my wifes-I always sit in the sweetspot!
 
....... This leads me to another idea. It would be cool to have a granite (or perhaps wood) base for the Summits, that has a teflon (or polymer) coating on the underside, to allow it to slide easily on carpet, like these sliding pads available for moving furniture... http://www.asseenontv.com/prod-pages/Movingmen.html.

:D

Sleepysurf,

Definitely worth trying the granite base. My Summits are resting on 26"x18" slabs.
 
Here's the math

I have now managed the time to listen a bit since installing Jason's RaceSpikes (TM?). I used 8 rather than 4 and have not yet played with tilt. The spikes did seem to improve image and soundstage height which is why I bought them. Midbass was tightened (a good thing) and low bass was slightly diminished. I plan to play with tilt at some point and will also play with the bass settings on my Summits. This leaves a narrow sweet spot as my major remaining ***** about the Summits relative to my previous reference Apogee Divas. Does changing the panel angle affect the size of he sweet spot? What is the easiest way to measure the panel angle and ensure they are equal (for math dummies like me)?

Hi Tony,

I explained this to Jason in a previous post on this thread but I'll try to do a better job this time. You will need a "scientific" calculator (one that has sine, cosine, tangent buttons) to figure this out.

It's called the good old pythagoreum theorum and you use it to figure all distances and angles for a triangle that contains a 90 degree angle. Anyway, here's the drill.

You'll need two pieces of string that are weighted at the bottom. For my measurement, I tied a large bolt to the end of each string. When the string hangs down and stops moving, the string line is perpindicular, or 90 degrees from the floor or whatever you attach it to.

Tape the string to the top front corner of each panel. For the left speaker, tape to the outside left corner. For the right speaker, the outside right corner. The bottom of the string, with the weight attached, should hang so it's just above the floor and allowed to move freely.

Look at each string and, if the tilt angle is exactly the same, you should be able to measure the same "offset" horizontal distance from the string to the front of the panel. Measure the horizontal offset distance, at the bottom of the woofer module, from the string line to the front of the panel. Let's call that dimension "x". Now measure the vertical distance from the bottom of the woofer module to the top of the panel where you've attached the string. Let's call that dimension "y". Divide "x" by "y" and hit the tan -1 (may be called "arctan" on some calculators) on your calculator. That result is the tilt angle, from 90 degrees, for the panel.

Before doing the division described above, you must first convert inches to its "decimal" equivalent. Say the "x" dimension is 2-5/8". Divide 5 by 8 and add 2. Repeat the same conversion for the "y".

You should also be able to see any significant difference in the tilt angle by looking at each string to see if horizontal offset distance is the same for both speakers.

So now you've done the math, converting the inches measurement into its decimal equivalent. After you divide "x" by "y", lets say you get 0.0281. Hit the cotan button and you'll get 1.609.

That's 1.609 degrees of tilt from 90 degrees. Add 90 to the 1.609 and you have a tilt angle of approximately 91 and 1/2 degrees.

This replicates what I measured with my speakers. The only exception was that I measured the dimensions from the top of the panel to the "top" of the woofer module. So in my case, the "x" dimension was 1-1/4" and the "y" dimension was 44-1/2". The corresponding decimal equivalents are, respectively, 1.25 and 44.5. Yup, dividing 1.25 by 44.5 gives you 0.0281. The arctan is 1.609.

So there you have it. I hope I explained this adequately and if I went overboard, there is no intention, on my part, to offend anyone's intelligence.

Have fun. :eek:

GG
 
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or just buy one of these:
 
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