Sub comparison

[rockeratheart]

I have a Sunfire Super Jr. sub. For anyone who has compared MLs with Sunfire, could you help me? I have not had the pleasure of hearing ML subs, and would want something comparable in price to the Sunfire. Where do people rate the Grotto i and Dynamo 1000 with a Sunfire Super Jr.? The Super Jr. has 1200 watts peak (I believe). What I want to know is are either of those Logan subs better at a balance of music and movies. I love my sunfire, and get more than enough rumble from that amazing little guy. But I really haven't heard a good set up with what audiophiles would call a "musical" sub. So I don't even know what that should sound like.

thanks.

ben

 

[TomD]

I have not heard the Sunfire sub, but let me relate my experience in going to a ML Depth. I have had (and still do) an Infinity sub, very big and very powerful. It shakes the house and is great for movies. However, there was always that lack of detail. You could not clearly distinguish the pitch, or even sometimes the base guitar from the kick drum. Very annoying from an audiophile POV.

Adding a fast, very musical sub made an enormous difference.:music:

You are definitely making an excellent move in satisfying the musicality of the sub experience.

BTW, keep that slower earth-shaker if you are into movies. Having a separate LFE channel made an incredible difference for HT.

 

[robertawillisjr]

I recently heard the TBI subs (2) mated with CLS and that is a match made in heaven. Won't shake the house as many of today's more popular subs, but delicious for music.

I am going to try them in my second Stylos system.

 

[gordonmenninger]

Hmm, once you listen to a JL Fathom f113 you will realize how much bass info down there you have been missing all these years. For comparison, your little sunfire sub is like a high school football team, and the Fathoms like the superbowl champs! They are worlds apart. I have 2 and loove them and I enjoy lots of woof!

 

[churchill]

I agree with Gordon, I'm running a single F112 in a 2.1 setup and love it!

 

[guido]

In my search for a subwoofer that integrated well with my SL3s, I ended up getting a REL T1. It does not shake the house, but it supplies the surprisingly little bass augmentation that the SL3s need.

An important element in the success of getting tuneful low frequencies in my room has been the addition of a DSpeaker Antimode 8033 equalizer to tame the undesirable LF room modes.

I would definitely look into the REL line for a really musical sub.

Guido F.

 

[robertawillisjr]

There it is. Musical vs. heft. The JL's are MUSCULAR and musical. ML's (Depth and Descent) are more balanced and lack some of the heft of the JL's. IMHO.

 

[TomD]

Hmm, once you listen to a JL Fathom f113 you will realize how much bass info down there you have been missing all these years. For comparison, your little sunfire sub is like a high school football team, and the Fathoms like the superbowl champs! They are worlds apart. I have 2 and loove them and I enjoy lots of woof!

I haven't experienced the f113 but based on its reputation and price point i would gladly trade my Depth for one. But based on Ben's post, i think he is looking for a kick-ass "college level" performance.

I think Ben wants to know if a lower model than the Depth will give a noticeable improvement over his current Sunfire. Based on my experience, a noticeable improvement occurred between the Infinity and the Depth. I suspect that the Sunfire is a better sub than my Infinity so the difference in going from the Sunfire to a Grotto i or Dynamo may not be as noticeable.

Unless someone can relate first hand experience with Ben's Sunfire sub, i think an audition may be in order. Although an audition should always be a priority if at all possible.

 

[robertawillisjr]

Depth and JL 110 -> Price equity

If you are considering price, the Depth and JL 110 are a closer match. Has anyone use both?

 

[MickeyVee]

I had the Sunfire Super Jr and believe me, going to any ML sub is going be a great improvement. The Sunfire is sluggish by comparison where the ML's are tight, fast and integrate well with the speakers. You wont get the 'rumble' any more, but you will get amazing, clean bass. Don't worry about the watts.

If you want a good step up and keep it affordable, the Grotto i is amazing. So are the other recommendations.
Good Luck!

 

[Beakman]

I think all this "bigger is better" nonsense is just that if you can't control what the sub puts out. I run a pair (there's a clue right there) of passive 12's with outboard amps/controls and they match the CLS in timbre and amplitude just fine. If a passage requires rocking the house, they will. I don't miss a thing as far as tone or resolution down there either. All with a lousy 200 watts per sub.
You all with the less-than-the-Joneses subs should put more thought into their control before blowing unnecessary bucks on the jewlery.

 

[crooner12]

If you are considering price, the Depth and JL 110 are a closer match. Has anyone use both?

I own a Depth i coming from an SVS SB12-Plus, and it's quite a subwoofer. I've demoed the F110 several times at different dealers and it's a nice little sub, but to my ears, the Depth i seemed to extend a bit deeper than the F110. While I can't do an apples-to-apples comparison since the subs were in different rooms at the time, output wise, it's pretty close. It's quite amazing what those three 8" drivers can do.

I was initially lured towards the Sunfire subs because of their diminutive size and prodigious power, but having read dozens of reviews, talked with actual owners, and then demoed the True EQ myself, I walked away unimpressed. Like a few others here mentioned, it definitely sounded "muddy" and boomy on all occasions when I demoed it in different rooms and on different source material. Also, the 2700 watt rating is deceptive, since the driver only sees maybe 200-300 watts max according to Carver's own whitepaper.

Either way, I'm 110% satisfied with the Depth i. I got mine on Audiogon from a local seller for an incredible bargain and it was in mint condition. It's easily the best true subwoofer I've ever owned, and one of the few subs I've heard, other than the Fathoms, that sound great with music yet still play powerful and deep enough for a true sub-bass movie experience that will give you the "room-lock" bass feeling.

I highly recommend the Depth i, especially if you can find a used one.

 

[2beornot2bop]

A decade ago I ran a pair of Genesis 900's with CLS's. The 900's featured a 15" aluminum woofer that was as fast and musical as I've ever heard, and more importantly they created a seamless blend with the quick ESL's.

I recently acquired my second pair of CLS's a decade later, so naturally I acquired a Genesis 928, which incorporates a pair of 12" aluminum woofers in its design. The 928 is in the mail, so I'm standing by to stand by with hopes that my intuition to acquire this sub was the right thing to do. I'd looked at Descent's and Depths, but I like going with what I've know worked in the past...we'll see...report to come.

 

[JMAUSGP]

I have had 2 Sunfire subs. For the money, they were a pretty good value proposition. If your budget is too tight I would say wait and go for the Depth i or Descent i when you can afford, I don't know that the Grotto or Dynamo will be big enough difference to warrant the expenditure and hassle, but step up the ladder a little higher and yeah, the Depth and Descent are really that good, especially when paired with ESLs.

I still have a Sunfire EQ Signature Sub in one of my ML theaters but it will probably be replaced with a Descent i or Depth i in the not too distant future.

Now when I compared the Sunfire subs to the Descent i and Depth i it was clear that the Sunfires were muddy and slower in comparison. But the Descent and Depth were double and almost triple the money so they should be better.

Then just so you know there is no end to the madness, I brought the JL Gothams in to the mix and there was another step up, but again the cost was 3 to 4 times the Descent i so it should perform better.

And better is a relative term, the Gothams made cracks in the walls upstairs, so now I have already had to repair noticeable cracks where the house started to come apart, so are the Gothams better, yes absolutely if you want to bring the house down on your head.

 

[User211]

And better is a relative term, the Gothams made cracks in the walls upstairs, so now I have already had to repair noticeable cracks where the house started to come apart, so are the Gothams better, yes absolutely if you want to bring the house down on your head.

Never forget the possible hidden costs of high performance subs.:devil::devil::devil:

 

[cyclone]

I think Velodyne subs should be mentioned even the older FS series subs are very musical and you can pick them up for few hundred dollars.

 

[Lightloopy]

Fathom 113 Question

I am auditioning this sub with my SL3's(just repaneled) and did the ARO. I am running a line out from a Premier 16 straight to the sub. The challenge seems to be integrating it with the room. It seems to have a subtle but significant impact. The set up was fun. My wife asked if I could do my auditioning without it sounding like a spaceship was landing on the roof!
Is an active XO needed to get best results? This adds $$ significantly.
Also trying to decide dropping $2500 for this sub vs. upgrading the ML's(used Summit or Ethos)
Thanks!

 

[churchill]

I have run my F112 both with and without an active xover and the active route provides better integration.

When I ran it without the xover, I was running my then Vista's full range and running the sub at about 50Hz and below.

I'm now running it with the xover and crossing my CLS's over at 77Hz. The JL does 80Hz and down better then most.

You might also consider room treatments or bass traps, I have both.

 

[Beakman]

I am auditioning this sub with my SL3's(just repaneled) and did the ARO. I am running a line out from a Premier 16 straight to the sub. The challenge seems to be integrating it with the room. It seems to have a subtle but significant impact. The set up was fun. My wife asked if I could do my auditioning without it sounding like a spaceship was landing on the roof!
Is an active XO needed to get best results? This adds $$ significantly.
Also trying to decide dropping $2500 for this sub vs. upgrading the ML's(used Summit or Ethos)
Thanks!

I don't believe that any sub's onboard controls offer enough. To use my setup as an example, the outboard active crossover gives choice of x-over slope (L-R 48) as well as point (66Hz). Further down the stream an equalizer is used to cut the various nodes below 100hz that the sub/room combo accentuate. For what doesn't or can't be reduced there, for reasons of how the EQ functions, duty again returns to the phase control on the x-over, an overall 60 deg on my setup.The X-over also puts a self calculated delay on the high pass signal to the mains, furthering overall coherency. This equipment, with wires and adapters, can be had from ~$ 700 new, or you can purchase more expensive, better equipment for all this. Chicken feed for someone spending 3-5 grand per sub IMHO, if sub integration is to be fully implemented.
All told, I have about 1900 bucks invested in 2 passive subs, separate amps, and the processing equipment. While all this may not initially be on par with a new Fathom or or its equivalent in wattage, materials or sparkle factor, I'm sure I have dealt with integration issues much better than those subs can right out of the box.

 

[Lightloopy]

Thanks for the comments.
I have studio traps and the room is treated. I am going to play with the settings for now as suggested by churchill. I'll then return it and see if I miss it.
The idea of putting together a passive sub/amp/xover system sounds interesting as per Beakman's suggestions. I just don't have the engineering know how but do have a friend who could help. It could be a fun project.
Thanks!!