Joey_V
Well-known member
Dont sell the Summits...
Something blew!
- Thread starter sleepysurf
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Dont sell the Summits...
MotorToad
Well-known member
sleepysurf
Well-known member
Just a brief update. My dealer followed right up with me, as well as with David Belles, and we've made arrangements to send the amp direct to David for further investigation. To their knowledge, this is the FIRST known failure of this newest 350A Reference Amp design (incorporating the soft-start circuit), and they are anxious to find out what happened. Given Belles' excellent reputation, and decades of experience designing both tube and SS amps, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt before passing final judgement. The musicality and detail of this amp is simply amazing, and I'm hoping the problem I experienced was due to a catastrophic component failure, rather than a design issue.
Audioseduction
Well-known member
Lets keep our fingers crossed. At least you have a backup amp.
Sounds like the Summits did a great job of protecting themselves. Its possible for an amp to send a surge or other form of destructive signal to the speakers when they go. Its good to know the speakers are designed to go into a fail-safe mode when that happens.
I'm sure Belles will make good on the amp issue.
I'm sure Belles will make good on the amp issue.
Joey_V
Well-known member
That's good to know....
sleepysurf
Well-known member
Well, David Belles called me today, and we had a lengthy conversation. First off, let me say I was *very* impressed with the guy... he is clearly a very knowledgeable amp designer, and a gentleman to boot. He asked a LOT of questions, trying to figure out what exactly happened.
In a nutshell, "something" fried a bunch of resistors and diodes in the primary outputs of both amp channels, but he's not sure WHAT. He initially speculated a direct lightning strike, but we kinda ruled that out, as it wasn't storming, and I have multiple levels of protection including a "whole house Zap-Cap" and local Monster Surge Protection/Power Conditioner, and nothing else was taken out. He said a surge through ground could also cause damage (i.e. indirect lightning hit) bypassing all the surge protectors. That damage could even have happened another time, when I wasn't home, with the amp turned off, but still plugged in. The sort of component failure failure can then progress with active use. That's certainly a possibility. Lastly, he said damage like this can (rarely) happen downstream from a tube pre-amp, during a transient power outage, if the pre doesn't have muting "crowbar" circuitry which immediately clamps (mutes) the output when the power fails. That's a downside of tube pre's that I wasn't even aware of. Turns out the Belles pre-amps DO include such circuitry, but neither of us knows if the Modwright does. That's certainly something I'll ask Dan Wright about.
Bottom line is, this problem was NOT related in any way to driving low impedance electrostatic speakers, nor was it likely to have destroyed my Summits. It was definitely NOT caused by a DC spike. The failure was also atypical in that both channels failed simultaneously. He's got hundreds of both the original, and new soft-start, 350A Ref amps in service worldwide, and this particular type failure is EXTREMELY rare.
He told me he rebuilt my amp, but he wasn't quite happy with the sound, so he'll build me an entirely new amp next week.
Although he can't 100% guarantee me this won't happen again, he feels it's quite unlikely. Interestingly, he admits that he leaves his own SS amps plugged in, and often powered up 24/7, but being in the lightning capital of the world, suggests I consider keeping them off and unplugged when not in use. I am so enthralled with the 350A Ref sonics, I'm willing to put a new one back into my system, to get those Summits singing as sweetly as before.
It's not too often you get 30+ mins of undivided attention from a highly-regarded amp designer, who REALLY wants to solve a customers problem. Kinda reminds me of the stellar customer service ML is known for!
In a nutshell, "something" fried a bunch of resistors and diodes in the primary outputs of both amp channels, but he's not sure WHAT. He initially speculated a direct lightning strike, but we kinda ruled that out, as it wasn't storming, and I have multiple levels of protection including a "whole house Zap-Cap" and local Monster Surge Protection/Power Conditioner, and nothing else was taken out. He said a surge through ground could also cause damage (i.e. indirect lightning hit) bypassing all the surge protectors. That damage could even have happened another time, when I wasn't home, with the amp turned off, but still plugged in. The sort of component failure failure can then progress with active use. That's certainly a possibility. Lastly, he said damage like this can (rarely) happen downstream from a tube pre-amp, during a transient power outage, if the pre doesn't have muting "crowbar" circuitry which immediately clamps (mutes) the output when the power fails. That's a downside of tube pre's that I wasn't even aware of. Turns out the Belles pre-amps DO include such circuitry, but neither of us knows if the Modwright does. That's certainly something I'll ask Dan Wright about.
Bottom line is, this problem was NOT related in any way to driving low impedance electrostatic speakers, nor was it likely to have destroyed my Summits. It was definitely NOT caused by a DC spike. The failure was also atypical in that both channels failed simultaneously. He's got hundreds of both the original, and new soft-start, 350A Ref amps in service worldwide, and this particular type failure is EXTREMELY rare.
He told me he rebuilt my amp, but he wasn't quite happy with the sound, so he'll build me an entirely new amp next week.
Although he can't 100% guarantee me this won't happen again, he feels it's quite unlikely. Interestingly, he admits that he leaves his own SS amps plugged in, and often powered up 24/7, but being in the lightning capital of the world, suggests I consider keeping them off and unplugged when not in use. I am so enthralled with the 350A Ref sonics, I'm willing to put a new one back into my system, to get those Summits singing as sweetly as before.
It's not too often you get 30+ mins of undivided attention from a highly-regarded amp designer, who REALLY wants to solve a customers problem. Kinda reminds me of the stellar customer service ML is known for!
Last edited:
David Prall
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Service!
Now that's what I call IMPRESSIVE service.
Now that's what I call IMPRESSIVE service.
Sambob2
Well-known member
This is the kind of customer service that makes all the difference! To find out that David Belles was not satisfied with the sound and is willing to build you a new amp is even more impressive!
Unfortunate it had to happen but I'm sure you will be a returning customer and so will some of us who are considering a choice among the many manufacturers out there. Great feedback! It's always good to hear what type of support people have had from various manufacturers, pro or con.
Sam
sleepysurf
Well-known member
Even more GREAT customer service now from Dan Wright (Modwright). I had updated him on my experience, and what David Belles said, which he agreed is very plausible. He checked his database and found that my SWL9.0SE (which was a demo unit) does NOT have the latest protection circuitry. He offered to upgrade me to the latest design for shipping cost only, and also offered me a deal on upgrading to his new tube rectified power supply (which also has the latest protection). His tube-rectified PSU has received glowing reviews (pardon the pun), and I was planning on eventually getting it anyways, so I took him up on the offer to do it now. In 2-3 weeks, I'll hopefully have an even lusher sounding setup, with better overall protection from spurious electronic surges.
Joey_V
Well-known member
Nice score with the Modwright SS!
This is what we potential customers like to see-companies which support their units in the field and treat clients right! Bravo, Belles and Modwright!
IWalker
Well-known member
The thread topic made me think of "something old, something new, something borrowed"... Sorry for the non-sequiter. Couldn't help myself.
Sorry for the non-sequiter. Couldn't help myself.
The thread topic made me think of "something old, something new, something borrowed"...
Oh, Oh, that's good... :cheers:
Great customer support story and glad everything worked out sleepysurf.
sleepysurf
Well-known member
Unfortunately, it now appears my Summits WERE damaged when my Belles amp blew. Since I was sending the Belles out for repair, I figured I might as well send my Modwright to Dan for a check-up, and for the tube rectified power supply upgrade, so my Summits have been sitting silent since.
Today I got back the upgraded Modwright (still waiting on the Belles), and excitedly reconfigured everything (with the Sunfire as a stand-in). I cranked it up, sat back, and my heart sank. The Summits sound like sh*t... weak bass, thin midrange, clearly SOMETHING wrong. I doubted it was the Modwright, but just to make sure, I fed the Benchmark DAC direct to the Sunfire, and had the same problem. Upon close inspection, BOTH front woofers are dead, and the Stat panels are sounding very "tinny" and underpowered. Although the Summits LED's are still green, somethin' ain't right. I fear the Summits ice-power amps, or other boards, are kaput. Don't know if I'll need to ship them back for repair, or if the repairs can be done locally. I'll call ML and see what they say, and also call David Belles and update him.
NOT good.
Today I got back the upgraded Modwright (still waiting on the Belles), and excitedly reconfigured everything (with the Sunfire as a stand-in). I cranked it up, sat back, and my heart sank. The Summits sound like sh*t... weak bass, thin midrange, clearly SOMETHING wrong. I doubted it was the Modwright, but just to make sure, I fed the Benchmark DAC direct to the Sunfire, and had the same problem. Upon close inspection, BOTH front woofers are dead, and the Stat panels are sounding very "tinny" and underpowered. Although the Summits LED's are still green, somethin' ain't right. I fear the Summits ice-power amps, or other boards, are kaput. Don't know if I'll need to ship them back for repair, or if the repairs can be done locally. I'll call ML and see what they say, and also call David Belles and update him.
NOT good.
Sorry to hear the problems continue. Hopefully it will not be to serious although none of the possible problems sound good.
Hope David Belles will step up with some help. You know Jim at ML will do what ever he can to get you back up and running.
Keep us posted.
Hope David Belles will step up with some help. You know Jim at ML will do what ever he can to get you back up and running.
Keep us posted.
Audioseduction
Well-known member
Sorry to hear you have additional issues. Hope Jim @ ML will get you squared away soon with out sending those bad boys in.
Sleepysurf,
Fuses,Fuses,Fuses.
That is what it sounds like to me but I could be wrong. Check it out It sounds like no power to the panels or the woofers.
Call Jim P and see what he has to say.
Jeff
Fuses,Fuses,Fuses.
That is what it sounds like to me but I could be wrong. Check it out It sounds like no power to the panels or the woofers.
Call Jim P and see what he has to say.
Jeff
sleepysurf
Well-known member
Thanks to everybody for the support! I'm praying it's something as simple as fuses. Interestingly, both bottom woofers are working, it's just the fronts that aren't. I'm also hoping the "thin" midrange is just the result of "unbalanced" sound due to the non-functioning woofers. I'm sure Jim Powers/Tech Support will be helpful. Unfortunately I'm working late tomorrow, so can't call till Wed.
