Small Sweet Spot

[MOON]

Jonathan,

Thanks for all the specific imformation, it will help me out a great deal, as well as it will for other members on the forum.

Cheers, Greg

 

[TrumpetDoug]

The Spot

In the last couple of YEARS I have been working on the imaging of my system. I just recently replaced my Salamander Synergy component rack with a shorter no name rack, that is really a work in progress. The overall difference in height and mass of this "rack" is substantial. All I can say is........WOW the image is dead on and and the whole sound-stage is wide open.:music: I can only attribute this to the smaller cabinet size, and thus less reflective surface. I can tell you with great certanity it is not because it is some ultra expensive boutique component rack.
I can't believe all the efforts I gone to only to find out that the size of the rack was contributing in a clearly negative way. Don't get me wrong the "rack" has a long way to go in terms of isolation and damping, but will be well worth it in the long run.
If you like check-out my pics on my system page and in a couple of days I will post this new set-up. It truly feels like I just made a component upgrade.

Doug - out
PS What I've done with the TT is already there at the end of the post. Component pics coming soon.

 

[sleepysurf]

Moon,

I strongly suggest investing a couple HOURS, and using furniture sliders (see post... http://www.martinloganowners.com/~tdacquis/forum/showpost.php?p=44505&postcount=121), try every conceivable placement in your room, to find out what works best. A few inches can make a world of difference (please keep snide comments to a minimum )

Acoustic treatments are certainly important, but if you find the optimal positioning without such treatments, just think how much better it will be after you add them!

I spent a couple hours yesterday doing just that, and (in my room) found that moderately extreme toe-in actually improved the imaging and widened the sweet spot. Sweet spot is now 2 persons wide from my couch. In fact, even extreme off-axis listening (side chairs in attached pic) is surprisingly good! My Summits ended up ~40" from the wall, 70" apart (center to center). YMMV, depending on overall room acoustics.

 

[Bernard]

I spent a couple hours yesterday doing just that, and (in my room) found that moderately extreme toe-in actually improved the imaging and widened the sweet spot. Sweet spot is now 2 persons wide from my couch. In fact, even extreme off-axis listening (side chairs in attached pic) is surprisingly good! My Summits ended up ~40" from the wall, 70" apart (center to center). YMMV, depending on overall room acoustics.

What do you mean by "moderately extreme"? Sounds contradictory.

 

[sleepysurf]

What do you mean by "moderately extreme"? Sounds contradictory.

Call me an oxymoron! Compared to the toe-in that most folks use (and ML standards using the flashlight trick), I'm using a LOT more toe-in than most. But in my room, it works.

 

[Craig]

What do you mean by "moderately extreme"? Sounds contradictory.

It means being "just a little bit pregnant"!


I agree with Sleepysurf that room acoustics have a lot to do with overall performance. I consider speaker positioning to be related to room acoustics. Also, reducing or eliminating any furniture or equipment between the speakers usually improves the imaging and soundstage.

Right now I have a short audio rack between the Summits but I'll eventually have it setup with nothing in that space but a pair of mono amps with the other components off to the side. However, the downside is either a pair of interconnects or speaker cables will need to be much longer. If I can use XLR interconnect cables then it shouldn't degrade anything.

 

[C.A.P]

I'm learning to adjust the room to the system instead of the conventional way of adjusting the system to the room. I have done a few things here that have made Huge improvements to my room. I also am learning that toe is a band aid to the rooms problem. Now the flames are a flying. I'm not saying all toe is bad. I have been playing with less toe and more room issues and have found that the room is the issue, and with the improvements in the room I need less toe and I get a MUCH better stage and image.

 

[Rich]

I also am learning that toe is a band aid to the rooms problem. Now the flames are a flying. I'm not saying all toe is bad. I have been playing with less toe and more room issues and have found that the room is the issue, and with the improvements in the room I need less toe and I get a MUCH better stage and image.

I agree with you there, C.A.P. Extreme toe-in is not the answer, but is generally just another less-effective way of dealing with poor room acoustics.

 

[MOON]

Today , I moved my Odessey's out a bit more to 5 ft off the wall to the panel which seems to be about the distance I have read on the forums here. I was quite surprised at the difference because it did widen out the sweet spot. I only moved the speakers a further 3 inches out from their previous position.

Cheers

 

[Brad225]

My 2 cents, the tow in is a room issue but for me it relates to the room size. How far apart your speakers are and how far away you sit from them will dictate how much tow in you will need for the sound you like. My experience has been that the more tow in I had the larger sweet spot for listening but the narrower the image /stage became.

My CLS's are about 7' apart and have a tow in of maybe 1 1/2". If I could I would move the speakers closer together and eliminate the tow in I would but the large cabinet in the between prohibits that. I think you can still have a great sweet spot with less or no tow and the width of the image/stage will increase due to the curved panel radiation pattern but you would need to sit farther away from the speakers than most of us have the ability to do with our room limitations.

On the couch 10 feet away it really narrows the image and stage to speaker width . If I move to my normal listening position 3' back from there and 6" higher the image and stage has the ability to be the 15' width of the room and much more height if the music has that in it. I have a one person sweet spot that is excellent but either side still sounds very good just not quite centered. But I am the only one that listens so it works fine.

My normal spot unfortunately is against the back wall. I have now placed 2" thick full range Ownes Corning 705 panels 6' high by 4' wide behind my chair and it is dead silent as oppose to a lot of reinforced bass before the panels even though there were 8' tall bass traps in the corners beside me.

I am beginning to push the WAF now with 17 panels and traps but each addition is an improvement. I am going to try to move in about 6 more but, the ceiling panels are going to be last because I think that will be the straw and camel thing.

As many people have said the room acoustics, speaker placement and seating position all are intertwined to create the sound you hear.

Find a rainy day like today here in Florida and just start moving everything around and see how it sounds

 

[sleepysurf]

Given all the discussions recently re diffusion vs. absorption behind the panels, I'd love to see some objective room/speaker acoustic measurements illustrating the effect of toe-in alone! If, as many have stated, you want to MINIMIZE the rear wave reflection, then the "physics" of toe-in makes sense. Like diffusion, it results in a redirected rear wave, that will not "cancel" the front wave. In my room, placing the speakers almost parallel to the wall, resulted in a slightly "disjointed" image, and which Audyssey measured as a "phase" error. As I toed the speakers in, the image "snapped" into focus, and the "phase" error disappeared. Although I don't (as yet) have real measurement tools, the Denon's Audyssey correction graphs give a rough approximation of how much "correction" is necessary to yield a "flat" room/speaker response. Below is the "old" graph (from a couple months ago) vs. the "new" graph after repositioning yesterday with substantial toe-in. In both cases Audyssey is still (appropriately) correcting for "boomy" bass nodes, but in the latter case, less correction is needed in the mids and highs.

 

[Brad225]

Maybe next time we get together I can bring 2 - 24"x72" full range panels. We can try in different positions behind your speakers and see if the graph shows any change. I now how it changes the sound in my system but I would be curious how it plots out your Audyssey.

 

[sleepysurf]

Yeah, I'd love to try that! Will need to find a time when our "Tampa Gang" can all get together.

 

[Joey_V]

I think toe in removes part of the room equation and allows for a better listening experience in most settings. Of course, there are exceptions, but I feel that toe in and a well placed listening spot removes a good portion of room "interference".

Just my thoughts.

 

[MOON]

Hi Joey,

What degree of toe in are you using? I would be curious what other forum members use for toe in. 1 1/2 inches was mentioned in one post, is there a certain ampont of toe in most are using on this site. If a few could post the amount they are using , it would be interesting to see the results.

 

[sleepysurf]

Here's one of the links describing the "flashlight" technique for adjusting toe-in. In my case, using "extreme toe-in" the reflection is at the outer 1/3 of the Summit panels (vs. the recommended inner third).

http://www.martinloganowners.com/~tdacquis/forum/showthread.php?t=125&highlight=flashlight

 

[Kgveteran]

Can we bring this back :0)

 

[sleepysurf]

Wow! Talk about a thread that's a "blast from the past!" I've since upgraded from Summits to Expressions, and still use a bit of extreme toe-in, but less than with the Summits. We're getting new furniture next month, and re-configuring the family/listening room. I'll experiment with toe-in at that time, and measure the effect using XTZ Room Analyzer Pro.

 

[Kgveteran]

Wow! Talk about a thread that's a "blast from the past!" I've since upgraded from Summits to Expressions, and still use a bit of extreme toe-in, but less than with the Summits. We're getting new furniture next month, and re-configuring the family/listening room. I'll experiment with toe-in at that time, and measure the effect using XTZ Room Analyzer Pro.

Do you use just the freq response when tweaking. I have an OmniMic and test disc….

 

[sleepysurf]

Do you use just the freq response when tweaking. I have an OmniMic and test disc….

I look at frequency response for signs of comb filtering, but also listen to multiple tracks for imaging and width of sweet spot.