Re-Kindle the flames ?????

[slowGEEZR]

Sam...
"So you are right in saying it affects the bass signals to allow our cartridges to track better, it's the dynamics of the groove, the physical size of the grooves undulations which are reduced. This does relate to the reproduced dynamics, the larger the groove modulation the larger the signal the cartridge produces, but you only have so much to work with until a cartridge cannot handle the velocity it needs to track the groove."

Right, that's what I was getting at. I was thinking that if, at the maximum dynamics of the vinyl, the cartridge couldn't track the dynamic grooves, but what I had wrong was thinking that the RIAA curve therefore restored those extra dynamics in the phono amp. I thought I had read somewhere that the dynamics after the RIAA "restoration" was approximately 79db. I guess the memory is one of the first things to go.

This does bring up a question though. I wonder why some cartridges today have a need for a dynamic range of over 100db?

Sorry, it was late last night when I posted that. I understand about using dolby and dbx and what they do in the recording process. Thanks Sam for the great overview. This is the part of the argument where I had the basic disagreement. Here's your paragraph...
..."The dynamic range is not increased to give more dynamics than what was originally sent to the record lathe itself. Remember the dynamic range of a record is not the greatest, around 60 - 65dB, I'm guessing myself on that one. So do the math here, if you have a 20Hz signal on that record at 65dB (highly unlikely but just for the sake of argument), it is attenuated by the RIAA curve by -20dB to a level of 45dB. When you play it back, the encoder in your preamp boosts it +20dB at 20Hz to 65dB."


I was thinking it was more like this...I'm going to cut and paste your paragraph and make my changes....
..."The dynamic range is not increased to give more dynamics than what was originally sent to the record lathe itself. Remember the dynamic range of a record is not the greatest, around 60 - 65dB, I'm guessing myself on that one. So do the math here, if you have a 20Hz signal from the master tape at 80db, (highly unlikely but just for the sake of argument), it is attenuated by the RIAA curve by -20dB prior to sending to the record lathe for cutting the vinyl to a level of 60dB. When you play it back, the encoder in your preamp boosts it +20dB at 20Hz to 80dB."

 

[Rvega003]

Pay no mind to Gorden, any topic that sparks an educated debate between arguably the sites two most informed and vocal members (tonepub and Jonfo) is a winner. Very rare that you ever find this level of insight on the net so for all intensive purposes let it continue. As far as adding anything meaningful to the debate, I'll stay on as an interested spectator due to my lack of relative knowledge on this topic. I will agree that the video was beyond flawed in its approach. From arguing digital superiority based on its ease of use to the execution of the test itself.

 

[repman]

I in know way can compete with the vast knowledge of the digital / analog experts on this forum

You guys could most likely give an MIT professor a bad day in a debate.

But coming from just a common sense approach to this debate it seems to me that any technology where there is deterioration of the medium> a stylus contacting the grooves of vinyl over time wont that deteriorate the sound and add to the noise floor of that medium.

I know when I am in love with a particular piece of music I can listen to it over and over again everyday for weeks with the digital medium this would not cause any wear how about with analog?

I know it has come a long way since we were kids and had to tape a penny to the arm and the new equipment is much easier on the album but is there not some degredation over time?

just my most likely to be shot down common sense thoughts on this subject

 

[Craig]

Digital audio must always be converted to analog before it can be heard by the human ear. Vinyl is already there.

 

[Satch]

0101110110000110100111000... All I can say is that I like the sound of my vinyl rig better than the sound my digital rigs. More Mojo, it just Feels more right. But after listening to a well recorded tape on my new UHA modded Tascam BR-20 reel to reel, uh, well, hmmm... I can't believe I'm listening to the same system. A huge leap in sound quality. Can't wait to get my Tape Project Tapes next Monday.

 

[FISH_MAN]

Digital audio must always be converted to analog before it can be heard by the human ear. Vinyl is already there.

this is true

 

[Gordon Gray]

Pay no mind to Gorden, any topic that sparks an educated debate between arguably the sites two most informed and vocal members (tonepub and Jonfo) is a winner. Very rare that you ever find this level of insight on the net so for all intensive purposes let it continue. As far as adding anything meaningful to the debate, I'll stay on as an interested spectator due to my lack of relative knowledge on this topic. I will agree that the video was beyond flawed in its approach. From arguing digital superiority based on its ease of use to the execution of the test itself.

I certainly respect Jeff and Jonathan's posts. However, there are many informed and vocal members on this site.

Based on your comments directed at me, I'll gladly consider myself uninformed regarding this issue because it's the message (enjoying the music), and not the messenger (medium) that matters.

If you want to ignore me and, IMHO, the underlying premise for this hobby, that's fine with me but I believe I have tried (like many others) to make a positive contribution to this site.

As for you, that remains to be seen.

GG

 

[Sambob2]

Sam...
"I was thinking it was more like this...I'm going to cut and paste your paragraph and make my changes....
..."The dynamic range is not increased to give more dynamics than what was originally sent to the record lathe itself. Remember the dynamic range of a record is not the greatest, around 60 - 65dB, I'm guessing myself on that one. So do the math here, if you have a 20Hz signal from the master tape at 80db, (highly unlikely but just for the sake of argument), it is attenuated by the RIAA curve by -20dB prior to sending to the record lathe for cutting the vinyl to a level of 60dB. When you play it back, the encoder in your preamp boosts it +20dB at 20Hz to 80dB."

Right...you're in it now!

Remember the RIAA curve affects different frequencies at a different level of attenuation or boost. The 20dB cut or boost is only at the extreme ends of the frequency response or at 20Hz and 20KHz. 1KHz is left alone and is usually the hinge point. (You'll need to look up the RIAA curve to acknowledge this if you can't visualize it.)

It is possible that Vinyl has a dynamic range of 80dB, and you're probably right on that, if so then your math is correct.

Why 100dB of dynamic range in a cartridge...it's always nice to have plenty of headroom...same reason I like having over 500 horse power in my muscle car, headroom, but us gearheads call it the need for speed!

 

[Sambob2]

0101110110000110100111000... All I can say is that I like the sound of my vinyl rig better than the sound my digital rigs. More Mojo, it just Feels more right. But after listening to a well recorded tape on my new UHA modded Tascam BR-20 reel to reel, uh, well, hmmm... I can't believe I'm listening to the same system. A huge leap in sound quality. Can't wait to get my Tape Project Tapes next Monday.

Satch,
I got to admit, there is something very unique about reel to reel sound. I've still got my TEAC A-3340S purchased brand new from many years ago and I still enjoy listening to tape on it! Granted it is a 4 channel 1/4 track machine running 1/4" tape, but it has something no other piece of gear can reproduce. I can't get myself to selling it. I always wanted to add a 1/4" half track machine but never got around to doing it.

 

[Satch]

Sam,

Check out "United Home Audio" that's where I bought my Tascam BR-20. I got the "Phase I" entry level deck. The only other decks I was considering was the Technics 1500 series modded by either Bottlehead w/ outboard electronics or J-Corder. Those J-Corder modded 1500's are wicked cool looking.

I also hope to do some Old School recordings of this Blues Trio I'm working with.

Ray

 

[JonFo]

I’d like to clarify that I do believe there is no such thing as perfection, only degrees of compromise.

Therefore, the question is which compromises. We all have preferences, both in styles of music as well as how we like to enjoy them.

There is no ‘wrong’ way to enjoy music in my book.

However, I do like to see progress happen, and as a person rooted in the scientific method, I have a hard time believing that the pinnacle of audio reproduction was achieved in the 50’s, with stereo recordings, tubes and vinyl records.

My analogy in the car realm would be someone trying to tell me a ’55 Chevy BelAir was the epitome of cardom and everything else since then is pure gimmickry.
Sorry, I’ll take a 2009 Nissan GT-R or an Audi R-8 any day.

Likewise in audio. Progress on fronts like physcoacoustics, room measurements, DSP, and human perception have all had significant discoveries in the past 50 years. Some of which has culminated in improvements to recording tech, audio reproduction and even room design and layout. An instance of amazing progress IMHO has been room correction. After living with it over a year, I could never go back to not having it. This leverages a LOT of knowledge and technical advances in the areas listed over those 50 years to deliver REAL, measurable and audible benefits.

I’ll keep advocating pushing those boundaries of auditory and sound reproduction understanding, and the tech that supports them. As this is what motivates me along with basic musical appreciation.

Personally, I’ll not be satisfied until some of my predictions for the next 20 years come true.

 

[Satch]

Jonathan,

I'm still just beginning to learn about high end audio and my system is the best system I've ever heard because it's the Only high end system I've ever heard! No kidding...

That said, when I compare these Front End components in my system, the Tascam BR-20 reel to reel with a well recorded tape sounds better than the Scheu Analog Cello TT w/ Blue Note cart. The TT sounds better than the Oppo cdp run through a Benchmark DAC 1 usb and the streaming audio, ReadyNAS NV+ > Squeezebox > Benchmark dac. The CDP and the Squeezebox sound about the same to me. Those run into a Cary SLP 98P tube pre w/NOS tubes > Ayre V-5xe amp > ML Spires. Oh, and a room full of various Real Traps.

That's just my inexperienced voodoo gut level science. But I bet my R2R with a Tape Project tape would sound killer on your system. Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't the '55 Chevy Bel Air, Nissan GT-R and the Audi R-8 all internal combustion engines?

Ray

 

[twich54]

My analogy in the car realm would be someone trying to tell me a ’55 Chevy BelAir was the epitome of cardom and everything else since then is pure gimmickry.
Sorry, I’ll take a 2009 Nissan GT-R or an Audi R-8 any day..

Jonathan, first I love your contribution to this thread but your analogy above is slightly off center........ to compare a '55 BelAir to Nissan Maxima would be more in line.

Having owned a '55(2 door 150 'post') I'll tell you one thing..........it's far easier to make 'sweet music' in the back of my '55 then any damn Nissan !!!!! .....LOL !!

 

[JonFo]

Digital audio must always be converted to analog before it can be heard by the human ear. Vinyl is already there.

This is a common perception, but one not rooted in science.

It turns out that all stored signals have some form of quantization or sampling involved, as other than a microphone connected to an amp connected to a speaker, there is no such thing as 'perfect' analog.

Think of the magnetic tape used to record analog. It is made of small magnetic particles deposited on a mylar tape. The particle density establishes some of the limits for saturation and frequency response. Those limits are further resolved by the speed at which the tape passes over the head, and the strength of the magnetic field in the head.

In essence, the tape/head/speed combination defines the quantization rate for 'analog'. As there is not an 'infinite' amount of magnetic particles, nor a perfectly controlled speed (wow and flutter) at both recording and playback.

Similar arguments have been made about vinyl.

So in the end, digital or analog all have their quantization limits and compromises.

As I said, it's all about which compromises yield a result you like.

But the question of accuracy is determined by scientific analysis that has been evolving over time. And for the past decade, PWM (DSD) and high-bit rate PCM have proven to deliver results that demonstrate the process is neutral.
When used in well-mastered recordings delivered on SACD, DVD-A or TrueHD, then we have a pretty close approximation of what the mastering engineer wanted the listener to experience.

 

[JonFo]

Jonathan,

I'm still just beginning to learn about high end audio and my system is the best system I've ever heard because it's the Only high end system I've ever heard! No kidding...

That said, when I compare these Front End components in my system, the Tascam BR-20 reel to reel with a well recorded tape sounds better than the Scheu Analog Cello TT w/ Blue Note cart. The TT sounds better than the Oppo cdp run through a Benchmark DAC 1 usb and the streaming audio, ReadyNAS NV+ > Squeezebox > Benchmark dac. The CDP and the Squeezebox sound about the same to me. Those run into a Cary SLP 98P tube pre w/NOS tubes > Ayre V-5xe amp > ML Spires. Oh, and a room full of various Real Traps.

That's just my inexperienced voodoo gut level science. But I bet my R2R with a Tape Project tape would sound killer on your system. Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't the '55 Chevy Bel Air, Nissan GT-R and the Audi R-8 all internal combustion engines?

Ray

Ray, I hear you on your preference. But the question is why do you prefer the Tape over the others?

Is it the smaller delta between source and playback in terms of mastering steps and mediums?
I’d say that has a high probability, as we’ve discussed in this thread, the biggest influencer is how something gets mastered.

And I’d agree, a good tape system can produce amazing quality. Back in the early eighties, I lusted after several Tascam units.

 

[JonFo]

Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't the '55 Chevy Bel Air, Nissan GT-R and the Audi R-8 all internal combustion engines?

Jonathan, first I love your contribution to this thread but your analogy above is slightly off center........ to compare a '55 BelAir to Nissan Maxima would be more in line.

Having owned a '55(2 door 150 'post') I'll tell you one thing..........it's far easier to make 'sweet music' in the back of my '55 then any damn Nissan !!!!! .....LOL !!

Dave, Ray, The contrast is more about the dramatic increase in technology as applied to power generation and management, traction (both the GT-R and R8 are AWD with torque-vectoring rears), transmission (both have dual-clutch sequential boxes that sift in 0.2s), vehicle dynamics control and tunable suspensions.

So even though it’s still an internal combustion engine in a vehicle with four wheels, the performance delta is huge. And even if we picked a ‘50’s Ferrari Testarossa (250GT?) , either of these modern cars would cream it, and for a heck of lot less money (adjusted).

Oh, and Dave, I would rather do laps of the Nurburgring in a GT-R than get back-seat ‘action’. The ‘rush’ lasts longer

 

[JonFo]

Dave, the car I REALLY lust after is the Frazer-Nash Namir concept from earlier this year.

Truly a digital geeks dream. Electric drive on all four wheels with performance and looks to die for.

Maybe Santa will drop one off tonight

 

[Audiophiliac]

I was ****ED off when I heard Metallica's Death Magnetic when it was released. If you have not heard the redbook CD, have a listen to a few tracks. It is nearly unlistenable. The original Kill 'Em All sounds better. They hacked the new one up so badly it should be illegal. There is clipping all over the place. It is compressed beyond any sane limit. Just ridiculous and aphalling that they could let something like that out of the studio.

Everyone was trying to decide who to blame. Was it the producer? Was it the band? Was it the guy who mastered it? Was it the guy doing the final mixdown? Well, I can tell you that the tracks of the same album downloaded for playing on Guitar Hero sound 1000% better than the redbook. They generally get the master tracks for use in the games. Separate tracks for each instrument and vocals for obvious reasons. So with the masters intact, my blame goes to the guy doing the final mix. He was either a noob, drunk, or just a retard. And apparently no one checked his work. Or the producer and the studio both decided that that is how it should sound. They should be shot. I realy hope Metallica was not able to listen to the mix before pressing. Surely, they would not allow that horrible quality to be released to millions.

I digress. I do not have a strong opinion between analog and digital. I could listen to my favorite tunes in nearly any format and still enjoy them.

 

[repman]

Dave, the car I REALLY lust after is the Frazer-Nash Namir concept from earlier this year.

Truly a digital geeks dream. Electric drive on all four wheels with performance and looks to die for.

Maybe Santa will drop one off tonight

I'll take the two girls Jonathan

 

[RUR]

Dave, the car I REALLY lust after is the Frazer-Nash Namir concept

Sure, but is it chain drive?



**Really, really, really obscure car history humor.**