Placement options – Impacts of location, orientation and treatments

[JonFo]

Nice find Alan. Definitely higher WAF (and good aesthetics in general).

Putting it against the rear wall (as depicted) is still reasonable, as there is plenty of low-frequency pressure there.

Corners do work better, but the wall opposite you sub is always a good place for something like this.

 

[sleepysurf]

I'm debating the best way to employ something like those. Unfortunately, the only place for my (NHT) sub is in my rooms left corner, so I can't place a bass trap there. GIK told me they can custom-size the trap to anything under 4 ft height (no additional charge). I'm thinking about getting TWO 2 ft "cubes" (placing one behind each Summit) with a silk plant on top acting as a diffusor for the panels. Waddya think about that idea?

BTW, here's another thread post with actual photos of my room, as well as the Denon Audyssey MultiEQ XT corrections...
http://www.martinloganowners.com/~tdacquis/forum/showpost.php?p=64187&postcount=5

 

[benleeys]

RealTraps are enroute

Jon,

You've convinced me enough for me to order almost $3k worth of traps from Ethan. They're now on their way to me half way across the world!

 

[Rich]

Jon,

You've convinced me enough for me to order almost $3k worth of traps from Ethan. They're now on their way to me half way across the world!

Congratulations! You won't be disappointed.

 

[benleeys]

Congratulations! You won't be disappointed.

Thanks, Rich. After treatment, I am going to update my Anthem D2 with their new ARC-1 software which is similar to the Audyssey EQ. Together, hopefully, I should end up with an almost ideal listening environment. Wish me luck!

 

[Ethan Winer]

You've convinced me enough for me to order almost $3k worth of traps from Ethan. They're now on their way to me half way across the world!

:bowdown:

Yes, they are indeed on the way!

Thanks Ben.

--Ethan

 

[benleeys]

:bowdown:

Yes, they are indeed on the way!

Thanks Ben.

--Ethan

Thanks to you, Ethan. You've been very helpful with your advice to this audio novice.

 

[JonFo]

Jon,

You've convinced me enough for me to order almost $3k worth of traps from Ethan. They're now on their way to me half way across the world!

Hi Ben, congratulations!

Please share with us where and how you will place them, also what other room tuning tools your plan to use.

The combination of treatments + something like the ARC-1 (or Audessey) should give you a very good result.

 

[benleeys]

Hi Ben, congratulations!

Please share with us where and how you will place them, also what other room tuning tools your plan to use.

The combination of treatments + something like the ARC-1 (or Audessey) should give you a very good result.

My setup wouldn't be as comprehensive as yours, Jon. Basically I prefer my room to be a bit live since I normally listen at a lower volume than most people.

So I'm going to hang 2 corner Mondos for the rear corners, together with a couple of Mondos on the rear wall. Behind each Summit will be a Mondo HF to aborb the rear wave. Against each side wall will be a Mini HF to control 1st reflections. Finally there will be 2 small Minis on the door. There is supposed to be another Mini HF behind the Stage, but I forgot to order it!

I already have 2 16" ASC traps which can be used for the front corners as well as 4 pieces of DAADs in reserve.

From the pics I've seen, I think the RealTraps are not as pleasing aesthetically as round traps, but if they do their job well enough, guess I can grow to like them. I will try to post pics when everything is in place.

Finally, the ASC-1 should be able to cover whatever the traps are unable to resolve - I hope.

 

[benleeys]

RealTraps have arrived!

The shipment arrived this afternoon.

Spent almost 2 hours unpacking and carting away the empty boxes to the dump. Quite a torture for a 63 kilo 61 yold with a half-healed frozen left shoulder and no one around to assist. Nevertheless, a labor of love.

Placed a Mondo HF behind each Summit and a Mini HF by the sides and simply couldn't wait, sweat and all, to sit down and savour the first fruit of my labor.

First impressions -
1. Instrumental harmonics clearer and more natural against a quieter background, especially in the high treble regions. Cymbal crashes sounded simply gorgeous.
2. Choral voices are clearer and individually much more distinct (Now the Green Blade Riseth/Proprius). The ambience of the Stockholm Cathedral came across beautifully.
3. A deeper soundstage.
I believe previously the mid/high frequencies suffered from comb filtering and so voices and harmonics suffered, becoming less distinct by comparison. The traps appear to be doing their job right. At this moment, I can detect slight room resonances in the 100-200 Hz region. Hopefully, when the traps are in place on the rear wall, the situation will improve.

I need help to hang the other Mondos on the rear wall, so the full impact of this minimum treatment will have to be appreciated later. Unfortunately I have no means to take before and after measurements, so will have to trust my tinnitus-afflicted hearing.

 

[Rich]

Congratulations, Benleeys. You have made a crucial investment in the long-term sound quality of your system. Can't wait to hear more impressions as you get the rest of them up.

I find it particularly interesting that your remarks after absorbing the back wave of the Summit are basically: greater clarity, better imaging, and better soundstaging (all of which I have been preaching for some time in favor of rear wave absorption). What I didn't hear you say was: music sounded dead, dull, lifeless, etc.

I believe rear wave absorption is the key to getting the best sound out of these incredible speakers in most listening environments. Reflections and comb filtering muddy the soundstaging and imaging that MLs are so good at. By eliminating these reflections, you can hear deeper into the recording. Just my opinion, obviously. But I am glad to hear that your experiences mirror my own.

 

[benleeys]

.......I find it particularly interesting that your remarks after absorbing the back wave of the Summit are basically: greater clarity, better imaging, and better soundstaging (all of which I have been preaching for some time in favor of rear wave absorption). What I didn't hear you say was: music sounded dead, dull, lifeless, etc.

I believe rear wave absorption is the key to getting the best sound out of these incredible speakers in most listening environments. Reflections and comb filtering muddy the soundstaging and imaging that MLs are so good at. By eliminating these reflections, you can hear deeper into the recording. Just my opinion, obviously. But I am glad to hear that your experiences mirror my own.

Rich,

Guys like you are gems to have around, really.

In my experience with front wall damping, thick heavy curtains across the wall will produce dead, dull and lifeless sound, the singer having a cold effect. Rather expensive mistake for me then. But if you restrict the absorbtion to just the immediate rear of a dipole, the result is just perfect. Together with controlling 1st reflections, all the virtues of a dipole are revealed. I tried dispersion too, but it did not work too well, I guess because the backwave is simply reflected elsewhere around the room and ends up interfering with the direct wave in the end.

I was using a couple of DAADs previously. They worked great, but the RealTraps, being rectangular, cover a wider (twice) area and worked better.

I would say that those doubting Thomases should try it out for themselves.

At this moment, oh boy, does James Last sound ever so good! I really must say "Thank you, JonFo" for pointing me to RealTraps with this thread in the first place. I was actually eyeing ASC traps seriously. :bowdown:

 

[Ethan Winer]

In my experience with front wall damping, thick heavy curtains across the wall will produce dead, dull and lifeless sound, the singer having a cold effect.

I can believe that, for two reasons:

1) As you said, a curtain on the entire wall will absorb a lot - much more than what's needed to control the back wave from the speakers.

2) Even more important, a curtain absorbs only higher frequencies. So it skews the response in the room by killing only the highs rather than absorbing evenly over the full range. Were you to line that wall with HF style MondoTraps that might absorb more than you care for, but at least it wouldn't sound muffled. You'd simply have less ambience and a faster decay time overall.

--Ethan

 

[Rich]

Even more important, a curtain absorbs only higher frequencies. So it skews the response in the room by killing only the highs rather than absorbing evenly over the full range.

I agree, Ethan. I think that is the key point.

 

[MOON]

Has anyone on the forum placed a tube trap directly behind there ML's and if so, what were the results? Did you have the reflective half of the tube trap facing the speaker?

I used to have a slatted door for diffussion behind my logans in the old room, but in my new dedicated room it has such a clean look that I decided to keep them out. I have 1st and 2nd reflection points taken care of as well as absorbtion and asc 1/4 round tube traps in the corners behind my logans.The treatments in the rear corners are Micheal Green room tunes. Here are pictures of the new room.The blinds on the windows are Hunter Douglas which are designed to keep light out, they haxe foil on the inside for this purpose which would reflect the sound as well. This was important to me as you can see that window behind the logans. I am still waiting for my chairs which are ordered.I have included a picture in of the old setup in which you can see the slatted doors.I did all the work on this room myself and am very happy with it.It is pre wired for a projector and screen as can be seen in the pictures.

I had to place the panels at the 1st reflection point horizontal , instead of vertical due to the window at that location.I found with the slatted door panels in place that if you weren't exactly in the sweet spot , it didn't matter. I am thinking perhaps the asc tube trap could do the same thing and look great doing the job, was thinking a 5ft high trap.

Cheers

 

[benleeys]

Has anyone on the forum placed a tube trap directly behind there ML's and if so, what were the results? Did you have the reflective half of the tube trap facing the speaker?

I tried ASC and DAAD tube traps directly behind my Summits previously, the absorbtion side facing the speakers. The idea is to absorb as much of the backwave as possible so that it doesn't bounce back to cause combfiltering effect with the front wave.

It did clean up the mids and highs very well. But the RealTraps (Mondo HF) seem to do a better job at it, probably largely because it covers a wider area horizontally. This is significant because the curved electrostatic panels cause the backwave to spread out over distance to the front wall. And RealTraps are relatively more cost effective too! (And oh, Ethan, I wish they don't smell that strongly!)

I tried difusion also, with slated doors, and found the sound somewhat livelier, like as if the room is more spacious. But definition and staging wasn't as good. Recorded ambience was largely overwhelmed by room effects.

My 2c worth.

 

[JonFo]

I can believe that, for two reasons:

1) As you said, a curtain on the entire wall will absorb a lot - much more than what's needed to control the back wave from the speakers.

2) Even more important, a curtain absorbs only higher frequencies. So it skews the response in the room by killing only the highs rather than absorbing evenly over the full range. Were you to line that wall with HF style MondoTraps that might absorb more than you care for, but at least it wouldn't sound muffled. You'd simply have less ambience and a faster decay time overall.

--Ethan

Ethan, I have, a front wall totally covered in Mondo HF's and really like the results. It might be too much for smaller ML rigs, but between the monster center and the huge Monoliths, there is a LOT of HF energy to dissipate at the front of my room.
But agree that those looking for the magic of dipole ambiance might find that too much.

So just absorbing directly behind the speakers (especially the center), is what yields the best results for most ML setups.

And in general, I find that absorbers, to be effective, must be as broad band as possible. Those ‘foam on the wall’ type solutions (and I’ve used those) do not yield a balanced presentation, as they still allow mid-bass resonances to build.

I tried ASC and DAAD tube traps directly behind my Summits previously, the absorbtion side facing the speakers. The idea is to absorb as much of the backwave as possible so that it doesn't bounce back to cause combfiltering effect with the front wave.

It did clean up the mids and highs very well. But the RealTraps (Mondo HF) seem to do a better job at it, probably largely because it covers a wider area horizontally. This is significant because the curved electrostatic panels cause the backwave to spread out over distance to the front wall. And RealTraps are more cost effective too!

I tried difusion also, with slated doors, and found the sound somewhat livelier, like as if the room is more spacious. But definition and staging wasn't as good. Recorded ambience was largely overwhelmed by room effects.

My 2c worth.

Hi Ben, thanks for the added insights and the pics. Sounds like the rig is really coming together.

 

[Ethan Winer]

(And oh, Ethan, I wish they don't smell that strongly!)

That should fade over the next few weeks or so. This is a rare occurrence, but sometimes happens. Especially when the traps are sealed in a box for a long time as in their trip to you.

--Ethan

 

[Ethan Winer]

Ethan, I have, a front wall totally covered in Mondo HF's and really like the results. It might be too much for smaller ML rigs, but between the monster center and the huge Monoliths, there is a LOT of HF energy to dissipate at the front of my room.

I too prefer a room more dead than live. Not totally dead of course, but with enough ambience removed that you can hear all the ambience in the music without having it be overshadowed by the ambience of the room.

Thanks guys.

--Ethan

 

[bigtickets]

Do you guys think that proud owners of bose speakers have discussions as in depth as this thread is? Another reason why I love these speakers. Cheers Cheers Cheers!!!

Eric