Overhang issue...

[Dreamer]

OK, here's my problem. My turntable literature says that with the tonearm that's on it, I need to have the overhand at 15mm. However, I've got a non-stock headshell (Sumiko), and even with the cartridge set all the way forward in the mounting slots, I can only get th eoverhand out to about 13.5mm. Do I need to use a different headhell, or can I get by with this one. It sounds pretty good on most records as-is, but I know it's not optimized...

Do I need to try and track down a stock headshell for this tonearm? I think I still have the one that came on this tonearm, but it might take me a while to find it.

 

[Jeff Zaret]

Well first of all you said it sounds ok so that is a clue that you are close. Whether you are close enough is a tough call. The only way I am afraid is to get another headshell and try it. Other than another cartridge of a different dimension that is all I have to offer. The hidden issue here is even though it may sound ok is there any undue pressure on the sylus or cantalever which you would not see? If so, would it shorten the life, by how much, any damage? If you could predict that I would suggest investing in the stock market to make tons of cash. Then you can have anything you want.!

With analog setups sometimes close enough is just that. The question becomes over time did it do damage and then how often does one play LP's, everyday for an hour, twice a week, on weekends? I guess the bottom line you could be ok.........................................??

Jeff

 

[jtwrace]

Is there enough material to mill out 1.5mm in the slots? If so, that is very easy to do..

 

[risabet]

The Sumiko is a nice HS but you need to set overhang properly to get the best sound from the cartridge. I'd look for the proper HS though that is no guarantee that you'll be able to set overhang correctly as the cartridge geometry is the important factor here.

 

[User211]

As long as everything else is correct, or nearly correct (it's impossible to be spot on), do NOT worry about 1.5mm IN THE SLIGHTEST. You simply will not hear a difference between where you are and the extra 1.5mm.

For peace of mind, however, if you can find a way, do it, I know I would. But you won't hear a difference if you achieve it.

 

[Bernard]

Doesn't overhang matter most as you get towards the centre of the LP?

 

[risabet]

As long as everything else is correct, or nearly correct (it's impossible to be spot on)

Not impossible, just time consuming. The problem is that every setting is related to every other. If you can't get overhang right than offset will in all likelihood be wrong also. If offset is wrong than anti-skate will be off, etc.

do NOT worry about 1.5mm IN THE SLIGHTEST. You simply will not hear a difference between where you are and the extra 1.5mm.

Really, the overhang IMS is inside of .5mm and the offset is spot on with Baerwald alignment. In absolute terms 1.5mm is a tiny amount but compare that to the size of the groove being traced and it is relatively gigantic. Misalignment of this magnitude is audible IME.

 

[RichTeer]

As long as everything else is correct, or nearly correct (it's impossible to be spot on), do NOT worry about 1.5mm IN THE SLIGHTEST. You simply will not hear a difference between where you are and the extra 1.5mm.

I must respectfully disagree with you here, strongly! Cartrdige alignment is critical, and 1.5mm is a huge amount on the scale of record grooves. It is well worth taking the necessary hour or two to ensure proper alignment of one's cartridge.

 

[twich54]

I'm in agreement with Risabet and Rich on this one as well.

I'm also wondering about Jt's suggestion......mill out the slots abit further and if the headshell has a 'frontal lip' get rid of it !

I know you like the "get creative approach" !!

 

[User211]

Dave, Rich, Risabet - I'd bet serious amounts of money that none of you could tell the difference in a blind test. Really serious sums of money. And I'd win!

No hard feelings here... I just know I am right! Arogant on this one - possibly - right? Definately!

 

[User211]

Not impossible, just time consuming. The problem is that every setting is related to every other. If you can't get overhang right than offset will in all likelihood be wrong also. If offset is wrong than anti-skate will be off, etc.

Define your tolerances if you want to take me up on it. Spot on means zero tolerance - you will never be spot on.

For instance, most use the cartridge body to align their carts. Many don't even have parallel sides. Virtually all will have cantilevers that are NOT parallel with the sides - I have seen a lot of carts where even by eyesight they do not look and are not parallel. Even those that look straight will not be when measured with high degrees of accuracy.

In absolute terms 1.5mm is a tiny amount but compare that to the size of the groove being traced and it is relatively gigantic.

True but comparison to the size of the groove is not the issue. We are talking overhang here... and the amount of angular error introduced by a 1.5mm is and will be negligable.

The truth is cartridge alignment is imprecise for a number of reasons. We should, however, strive to do the best we can with it.

 

[User211]

I must respectfully disagree with you here, strongly! Cartrdige alignment is critical, and 1.5mm is a huge amount on the scale of record grooves.

See above.

 

[risabet]

Dave, Rich, Risabet - I'd bet serious amounts of money that none of you could tell the difference in a blind test. Really serious sums of money. And I'd win!

No hard feelings here... I just know I am right! Arogant on this one - possibly - right? Definately!

Is your position based on something the rest of us don't know, or is it just an opinion? As for blind testing, no thanks.

 

[risabet]

Define your tolerances if you want to take me up on it. Spot on means zero tolerance - you will never be spot on.

Let's use overhang specifically. The recommended over hang for the Ittok is 18mm. Mine measures out at 17.8+/-.2mm using a Starrett mm rule.

Perfection is the enemy of good enough, but 1.5mm is not even close to good enough.

For instance, most use the cartridge body to align their carts. Many don't even have parallel sides. Virtually all will have cantilevers that are NOT parallel with the sides - I have seen a lot of carts where even by eyesight they do not look and are not parallel. Even those that look straight will not be when measured with high degrees of accuracy.

Which is why some of us actually align the cantilever as best as possible using accurate set-up gauges. When instrumentation is used, oscilloscopes, test records, HD analyzers etc, cartridges can be set-up to the theoretical limit.

True but comparison to the size of the groove is not the issue. We are talking overhang here... and the amount of angular error introduced by a 1.5mm is and will be negligible.

The truth is cartridge alignment is imprecise for a number of reasons. We should, however, strive to do the best we can with it.

With a pivoted arm the stylus is tangent to the groove at only two points as it is (65.6mm and 120.6mm for the Ittok). In order to minimize distortion, both tracing and the resultant HD, and maximize tracking 1.5mm off of overhang won't cut it. What should the new offset angle be? As I wrote above, all of the settings are interrelated and changing one causes the others to change also.

 

[User211]

Due to a bout of insomnia...

Risabet, what you have said sounds convincing(ish), but the answer lies in maths and percentage error. It's not the percentage error of 1.5mm of the overhang figure of 15mm that counts here (although you didn't say it was in fairness). But you are implying that 1.5mm is a big deal, which it isn't.

The overall effect is 1.5mm from the arm pivot, which for a normal setup is 9 inches. That will make absolutely minuscule errors in other departments. As I have said, I would try for the 15mm, but if I couldn't do it, I am sensible enough not to worry about it.

Why no theoretical blind test acceptance? We know it'd never actually happen. But you would find it impossible to reliably determine the difference. No question about it. Do you deny that?

If I am wrong, feel free to chip in anyone

 

[RichTeer]

True but comparison to the size of the groove is not the issue. We are talking overhang here... and the amount of angular error introduced by a 1.5mm is and will be negligable.

Experience tells me otherwise. Many years ago a friend of mine and I were having one of our "audio nut" sessions. The Elite Cartridge Alignment protractor came free with a copy of HiFi Choice, so on a whim, we set about checking and adjusting his cartridge. (I was turntableless at the time because I was saving up for my Roksan Xerxes.)

Even though he had "only" a System Deck with (I think) a low end Audio Technica MC cartridge (AT-F3?) mounted in a Rega RB250 arm, the before and after effects were incredible, especially when the cost of the tweek (i.e., £0.00) was taken into account.

The truth is cartridge alignment is imprecise for a number of reasons. We should, however, strive to do the best we can with it.

Well make up your mind! Either 1.5mm isn't worth worrying about because it makes no difference, or we should strive to do the best we can do with our set ups!

Take the time on your set up to dial in the cartdirge alignment. All being well, you should hear a substantial improvement.

 

[Bernard]

Which is why some of us actually align the cantilever as best as possible using accurate set-up gauges.

I do that as well, and am amazed that alignment gauges such as the Feickert are so highly recommended by magazines such as TAS as they use the body of the cartridge for alignment.

 

[User211]

Sounds cool but not so easy with short cantilever designs. Just have to have faith with those.

 

[risabet]

Sounds cool but not so easy with short cantilever designs. Just have to have faith with those.

I did it with a Dynavector 23RS and had no trouble at all!

 

[User211]

I didn't do it with my Orpheus because you just can't see the cantilever well enough when it's mounted in the arm. But it does at least look totally parallel with the body - so there wouldn't be any advantage.

Just look up the Dyna - looks like a 17D3 - you must be AMAZING Risabet.