New Martin Logan Speakers!

[squasher100]

http://www.martinlogan.com/electromotion/

http://blog.hometheatermag.com/cedia2010/092310martinlogan/

Curious to hear how it sounds.

 

[RUR]

You've left out the new Theo.

 

[Rich]

*Yawn*

Electromotion sounds like a lot of marketing hype and an effort to bring a cheap ESL to the home theater market. No surprise there.

And the Theos appears to be nearly identical to the Vista, except for a 4" taller ESL panel, a (supposedly) upgraded crossover, and a cheaper cabinet (why else would it be 11 pounds lighter?). Oh, and let's not forget the $700 upgrade to the price!

Just as I predicted at the beginning of this year, they are replacing the Vista and Vantage with speakers that are likely no better, and jacking up the price considerably. The Ethos is virtually identical to the Vantage, except it has a shorter ESL panel, a DSP engine , and is again 10 pounds lighter and almost $800 more expensive!

The price upgrades don't surprise me too much. ML has been jacking up the prices on all its speakers in the last few years. But the lighter weight is very concerning to me. There aren't too many areas to save weight on these speakers. Since the components are virtually identical, the primary place to save weight is in the cabinetry. Cheaper, lighter cabinetry is not a plus on an esl speaker. Rigidity and stability of the base are very important with these speakers. Twenty percent lighter weight with virtually identical components does not speak highly of the quality of these speaker cabinets.

So, in summation, you get nearly identical speakers but with 20% less weight for almost 15% more money.

Welcome to the new ML.

 

[Audioseduction]

I wonder how many of these employees are no longer with ML.

 

[twich54]

Well George, we know Jim Power (top row, green shirt) is gone, but I'm assuming Devin Zell (bottom row right, white shirt) is still there.

 

[BobF]

With all due respect Rich I can see your concern about lighter weight but that can be dependent on what they use for the cabinet material.
I have had Logans since the Sequel came out and the Prodigies now and quite frankly for 12 G's list I am not that impressed with some of the build quality. Speaker terminals that are plastic and have cracked as well as the terminals being loose and yes after 40 years in this game I am very carefull and then the grill covers which are weak at best material wise.
We are not talking about Bose here. Thank goodness they sound great!
Best,
Bob

 

[Rich]

With all due respect Rich I can see your concern about lighter weight but that can be dependent on what they use for the cabinet material.

I agree, Bob, and that is part of my concern. They have obviously made a change in the cabinet material, but have failed to mention it in any of their marketing. That doesn't bode well. When ML does something that is good, they tend to over-emphasize it in marketing. When they do something not so good, they tend to ignore it. My concern is that they have changed to a cheaper cabinet material and are hoping no one notices.

And let me emphasize that even if there was no change in the cabinet material itself, the simple act of losing 20% of the weight of the speaker can have a detrimental effect on the sound. It is pretty well-known that ML's need stability and bracing to sound their best. If the panel is not absolutely stable, then imaging is shot. Lighter weight speakers may be cheaper to make and cheaper to ship and more user-friendly to move into the living room, but they are unlikely to perform as well as a heavier speaker.

 

[User211]

Well, there's always Joe's use of stone to upgrade CLX bass. Maybe there's a future in marketing nicely machined slate to fit on top of the lighter ML hybrids...

Ultimately, loss in quality and rise in price can only bite ML in the arse. Or simply lead them to conclude that the Reserve ESL series isn't financially viable (through their own doing) and conclude that producing these items simply isn't worthwhile.

 

[Rich]

Ultimately, loss in quality and rise in price can only bite ML in the arse. Or simply lead them to conclude that the Reserve ESL series isn't financially viable (through their own doing) and conclude that producing these items simply isn't worthwhile.

Agreed, Justin. Let's not forget that the new CEO of ML/Paradigm listed on his resume as one of his chief attributes his experience at cutting costs and raising profit margin in a manufacturing environment. Seems he is trying to do the same thing here. Unfortunately, having no prior experience in high end audio may come back to bite him. Cutting costs in a handmade speaker is likely going to result in lower quality, and once you get a reputation for diminished quality in high end audio, your sales drop through the floor.

 

[robertawillisjr]

Agreed, Justin. Let's not forget that the new CEO of ML/Paradigm listed on his resume as one of his chief attributes his experience at cutting costs and raising profit margin in a manufacturing environment. Seems he is trying to do the same thing here. Unfortunately, having no prior experience in high end audio may come back to bite him. Cutting costs in a handmade speaker is likely going to result in lower quality, and once you get a reputation for diminished quality in high end audio, your sales drop through the floor.

Well we will have to see the final products, but I don't think he cares about the product. It seems to be just another widget to build and ship as cheaply as possible. Profit margin.

 

[Feltran]

I'm not saying there aren't some questions to be asked, but let's not put the cart before the horse. No one has heard the new speakers yet, after all.

 

[Rich]

I'm not saying there aren't some questions to be asked, but let's not put the cart before the horse. No one has heard the new speakers yet, after all.

So until we have actually heard the speakers, we are not allowed to comment on the published specs that show them to be 20% lighter in weight and 15% higher in price than the models they are replacing? And to draw reasonable inferences from those facts?

Can anyone tell me: how do you lose 10 pounds off of a 50 pound speaker, when keeping the basic specs and components the same? The only answer I know of is by going to a less-dense material in the woofer cabinetry. Since when is a lighter, less-dense material a good idea for woofer cabinetry (and also the base of an ESL speaker that has no bracing for the ESL panel)? I'm just sayin' . . .

 

[-justin-]

We are not replacing the Vista and Vantage. The Theos and Ethos will on be available through Reserve Dealers and have different voicing (you should go get a demo), different crossovers, different bass drivers, DSP engine (Ethos only) and exotic wood finish options not available with Vista/Vantage.

As far as cabinet, it's the exact same high quality, solid construction materials we've always used. The difference in weight can be accounted by a few things:

1) No large internal MDF port (like Vantage has) - bulk of weight difference.
2) More efficient bass driver.

Let me know if you have any other questions, I'll try to answer when I sneak off to the side of the booth when my feet start to hurt...and still 2 more days of CEDIA.

~Justin

 

[Shub]

Bass driver

Justin -

Those sound like reasonable explanations. The only question I have is in terms of "more efficient bass driver." It would seem unlikely that there is 10 pounds of internal MDF porting to remove (I'm guessing of course). Does that mean that the magnet structure is reduced in size for the bass driver - this was the only conclusion I could come to when you mentionned that a more efficient bass driver also accounted for the decrease in weight.

Thanks!
Bjarni

 

[-justin-]

I would assume that there's a lighter magnet, since a more efficient bass driver would require less mass to move it. Although I haven't taken it out to weigh it, I guess I could do that one day when I get back to Kansas, if it's really a concern.

Bottom line is cabinet materials haven't changed, and the Ethos is an entirely different animal from the Vantage.

 

[tonepub]

Here we go again.... ML has a new model, Rich hasn't heard it and he's grumpy about it. Want to talk about a yawn.

We'll have the Electromotion before the end of the year and at $2000, I'm hoping its an updated Aerius. that was one of my favorite ML speakers.

We'll see, and we'll comment after we've actually heard it....

 

[User211]

Being real about it, if they can make the speaker work well at less weight, then it is an advantage.

Try moving a pair of Duetta Signatures around - that isn't fun. Way too heavy. They don't move much in use as a result, though.

I'll see what turns up in the Absolute Sounds demo rooms at Silverstone as I am going tomorrow. Any new models there, and I'll post some pics and some dodgy "show conditions" assessment of them - assuming they are in use when I'm there.

 

[Thai]

When will home speaker woofers use neodymium magnets? Wouldn't that save a whole bunch of weight?

 

[FoxMulder]

Here we go again.... ML has a new model, Rich hasn't heard it and he's grumpy about it. Want to talk about a yawn.

We'll have the Electromotion before the end of the year and at $2000, I'm hoping its an updated Aerius. that was one of my favorite ML speakers.

We'll see, and we'll comment after we've actually heard it....

Jeff,

Here, here dude! Better than I could have stated and exactly right!

 

[Jungle Jack]

Hello,
I am glad to see some Models that are specifically allocated for Reserve Martin Logan Dealers as these are the Dealers that are more in line with the Dealers that have been carrying them for years and do not use AVR's to Demonstrate the Speakers like Magnolia A/V does.

As to the Ethos being a completely different beast to the Vantage, I do look forward to listening to them. If impressed, I might move them to the Front and move my Vantages to the Surrounds and sell my Vistas.
Cheers,
JJ