New Martin Logan Speakers!

[Rich]

Thanks to Justin for the response. But it doesn't really add up. Does the Vista also have an MDF port? Because the Theos is listed at 11 pounds lighter than the Vista, and the Vista even has a larger panel.

I find it hard to believe that you could shave off eleven pounds with just more efficient woofer, but I suppose it is possible.

As for Jeff, I know you have your advertising dollars to protect, so you wouldn't want to be critical of anything ML does, but are you telling me you don't think it is a mistake to go for 20% less weight on what is already a pretty light speaker for an ESL? No need to wait to hear the speaker to review it. I am sure the review will be absolutely glowing, as all of your reviews are.

 

[tonepub]

As usual Rich, you aren't paying attention...

We wrote a pretty critical review of the CLX and insisted that the speaker needed a subwoofer, which no one else in the high end press did.

We also said that while the Summit X was a good speaker that it probably wasn't worth the money for a current Summit owner to upgrade. No one else addressed this either.

And we said that the Purity had serious limitations in terms of speaker placement and sweet spot/listening area.

And I've mentioned that every current ML speaker I've listened to is not much of a match with tube electronics.

As for the Vantage, Spire and Summit, I stand behind the reviews, all great speakers.

For all your whining six months ago, MartinLogan has not perished, nor has quality control or customer service gone down the drain because Jim Power left.

Almost everything pertaining to the operation and current product of ML from you is always negative and is never as a result of any direct contact with anyone from ML. It's just your usual Chicken Little "the sky is falling" commentary. You should get a job with Fox News, so you can go to lunch with Sarah Palin and have a pro show you how it's done.

For now your comments remain as always, amateurish, uninformed and negative.

Yawn.

 

[Rich]

Wow! You had the audacity to suggest that a speaker that only goes down to 56 hz. needs a subwoofer? Yeah, that's really critical. Guys on this board called that one as soon as they released the specs, as I recall. And the Summit X? It is virtually identical to the Summit with a different crossover. Not exactly a big leap to suggest it might not be worth an upgrade, especially considering the poor resale values of the Newer gen speakers like the Summit. If those are your examples of how hard-hitting your reviews are, then I guess you make my point for me.

I don't expect ML will perish in six months, or even a year or two. In fact, they may flourish. Bose flourishes. I just think it appears that their best years of quality high end products and unparalleled customer service are behind them. And believe me, I'll be as happy as anyone to be proved wrong. But I'm still going to call things as I see them, based on the facts I have available and regardless of whether that view is positive or negative. Because I don't have to be a fanboy all the time. If that seems amateurish to you, well maybe that's because you are posting on a user's forum. Most of us don't pretend to be professionals here.

 

[User211]

Well, heard a new model today, and got half a tonne of Audio Research pics too - all the latest stuff including the Ref phono.

With regards to bass cabs - the Apogee refurbisher I was with asked them to play a CD and was flatly refused. No bass challenging material was played - just female vocal with light backing. With top of the line AR input, it did sound good to these ears. Shame I couldn't evaluate the area in question. More tomoz if I get the time.

 

[David Matz]

And I've mentioned that every current ML speaker I've listened to is not much of a match with tube electronics.

Jeff,

If you are talkng about the low powered stuff 60-120 wpc most people have in their systems, I agree with you. It all sounds syrupy.

But if you listen to the speakers with some serious tube power such as Atma-sphere or the monster powered VTL stuff, it's a WHOLE BIG LEAP ahead of anything out there. There are some amazing tube amps out there. Unfortunately, they are big, heavy, and expensive. But they sound REAL.

 

[David Matz]

We'll have the Electromotion before the end of the year and at $2000, I'm hoping its an updated Aerius. that was one of my favorite ML speakers.

We'll see, and we'll comment after we've actually heard it....

I wonder how the $2k ML will compare against the new Magnepan. Valin has been going Valin about the Maggies. The Electromotions look a bit more wife friendly.

 

[Rich]

Jeff,

If you are talkng about the low powered stuff 60-120 wpc most people have in their systems, I agree with you. It all sounds syrupy.

But if you listen to the speakers with some serious tube power such as Atma-sphere or the monster powered VTL stuff, it's a WHOLE BIG LEAP ahead of anything out there. There are some amazing tube amps out there. Unfortunately, they are big, heavy, and expensive. But they sound REAL.

Agreed. Like most generalized statements in audio, this one has lots of exceptions. Some users don't mind rolled-off highs and prefer a more euphonic sound. And some tube amps are beefy enough to be more than capable with the newer ML speakers. I know that my CJ Premier 140 sounds superb with my Summits.

 

[Peter Soderberg]

To All. I have been asked by Justin with his busy schedule, to occasionally jump in. I have owned, sold and now work for ML for 20 years so may have the most "on the ground" experience of any one at ML. As I work for ML, I must remain a certain arms length so that this site remains separate from us, but there are times where certain insights I can provide may shorten up some threads allowing you all to get back to better things. To Rich, your comments on Ethos, Theos are fine but in your own sig line you say"trust your ears". To simply make negative statements on a single spec is not just "commenting". All I can ask when you get a chance to compare old to new is to trust your ears. We have a library and make great pains to buy competing products during our long development cycles to make sure we continue to move forward. We are human and may make a mistake, but there is no business pressure to move backward. We are in one of the best positions in our history and have a few more good things coming down the road so all that we an ask is the fair shake an evaluation can provide.

 

[Rich]

Thanks, Peter. I appreciate your comments. I will certainly audition the Ethos and Theos when the opportunity arises. But since it is about fifty miles to my nearest reserve dealer, it may be a little while. In the meantime, I don't see any problem with commenting on the published specs of the speaker and speculating on their implications. That is kind of what we do here . . . discuss all things audio and Martin Logan.

Along those lines, could you comment on the weight difference? A twenty percent weight difference between Vantage/Ethos and Vista/Theos (otherwise seemingly very similar speakers in build and components) seems pretty significant. Where was the weight lost? Does that lower weight not affect the stability of the ESL panel?

Another question I had that you might be able to answer for me: Why does the Ethos have a bass adjustment knob, since it has a DSP engine? Wouldn't the DSP engine adjust the bass output to the room?

 

[Peter Soderberg]

no problem and yes, distance can be a pain at times, making speculation almost necessary. As to weights, I think in the real world they may be closer, as i have moved enough around to feel like it isn't too far off. Justin covered some of it with the different magnet structure resulting in better low midrange/upper bass, and eliminating the 4 slats of wood that made up the long port. In addition going to the DSP means, according to Joe V. 121 parts are eliminated resulting in less noise and yet with pretty big improvements in sound. The DSP has multiple functions in terms of dynamic control of both driver and amp section and preeq of the system that is the woofer, passive, amp and box parameters making for quite a jump in performance in this regard. By being active and using more powerful control for the woofer section, we can make the box 80% smaller than conventional designs would allow. Who wants a big box behind the panel? Remember, it only is about the box and is not in the path to panel. The DSP serves to improve those parameters in the box, but has nothing to do with external forces in room acoustics and tastes. We did move the frequency up to 100hz and with a gentler slope. This will make them easier to get bass balance right in more rooms, especially in Europe where the rooms are small and houses are stone, sometimes resulting in the Vantages sounding bass heavy, tubby that no amnout of 35 hz knob twirling would help. I hope that helped and again, only your ears can decide.

 

[David Matz]

Agreed. Like most generalized statements in audio, this one has lots of exceptions. Some users don't mind rolled-off highs and prefer a more euphonic sound. And some tube amps are beefy enough to be more than capable with the newer ML speakers. I know that my CJ Premier 140 sounds superb with my Summits.

Rich, I agree with you. It's all personal taste. I think all opinions are valuable because they can expose someone to a new alternative that may improve their music listening experience.

It's kind of like talking about Haagen Dazs vs. Ben and Jerry's. But if you have been eating Breyers your whole life and find Haagen Dazs, it is big leap.

 

[cstory]

It's kind of like talking about Haagen Dazs vs. Ben and Jerry's. But if you have been eating Breyers your whole life and find Haagen Dazs, it is big leap.

Ah, but it's only when you finallly get to eat Graeter's that you find out what ice cream is really all about.

 

[Rich]

So what "tweaks" do you guys use on your ice cream to enhance the experience?

 

[RUR]

Personally, I use grounded carbon fiber cones. There is a small triboedible effect that helps to accumulate the flavor ions that jitter into the ice cream.

and cryoing.

 

[bigaudiofanatic]

I'm not saying there aren't some questions to be asked, but let's not put the cart before the horse. No one has heard the new speakers yet, after all.

I completely agree, yes they lightened the speaker I do not think they are going to put that in the headlines WE LOST 10 POUNDS! As to new crossovers and a better woofer. Rich you seem to be getting ahead of yourself and seem to want everyone to get upset with ML. I see no reason on doing that UNTIL you have heard them. I believe they are still going to be a quality product that just lost a few pounds. Sit down and enjoy some :music:

 

[bigaudiofanatic]

Here we go again.... ML has a new model, Rich hasn't heard it and he's grumpy about it. Want to talk about a yawn.

We'll have the Electromotion before the end of the year and at $2000, I'm hoping its an updated Aerius. that was one of my favorite ML speakers.

We'll see, and we'll comment after we've actually heard it....

I take it this goes on often?

 

[bigaudiofanatic]

Never mind lol

 

[Rich]

Rich you seem to be getting ahead of yourself and seem to want everyone to get upset with ML.

How am I getting ahead of myself, exactly? ML published specs and I commented on them. My comments elicited more information from ML. How exactly is that a bad thing?

I am not particularly happy with the direction I have seen ML going in the past few years. That is my prerogative. I am allowed to express my opinions, be they positive or negative. Your conjecture that I "want everyone to get upset with ML" is just that: your own conjecture. I express my opinions. What others do with them is their own business.

I see no reason on doing that UNTIL you have heard them.

Then you shouldn't comment on them until you have heard them. I feel no such constraint. It's not like I am saying they are going to sound awful. I am discussing the potential impacts of a 20% weight loss and the potential reasons for that weight loss. The weight loss is a fact. It is in the published specs. Listening to them isn't going to change that fact.

Sit down and enjoy some :music:

Please don't patronize me. I listen to plenty of music. I am on this forum to discuss ML and all things audio. But it seems every time I express my opinions and they don't comport to whatever the fanboys want to hear, I get told to shut up. Sorry, I'm not that type.

Let me say this, though: We have received more direct information from the folks at ML, and had more participation from them on this forum, due directly to my comments, criticisms and questions, than to anything anyone else on this forum has ever said or done. Whether you like me or dislike me, whether you agree with my opinions or not, you cannot deny that fact. Dissent and critical evaluation are essential and valuable to any open forum, and I will not just sit back and put on my rose-colored glasses as you seem to want.

 

[Rich]

Personally, I use grounded carbon fiber cones. There is a small triboedible effect that helps to accumulate the flavor ions that jitter into the ice cream.

and cryoing.

Classic!!!! :ROFL:

 

[bigaudiofanatic]

So you would rather make conclusions and speculations from weight? That is like me saying oh well this sub weighs 120 pounds must be good. Or myself weighing 250 so I can not run. I do run so it would be a bad conclusion. As said earlier let your ears tell the truth. I mean I would certainly not insult a speaker such as a Abbies and never heard them. That would be a poor review on something I have never heard.