New home, new room......potential problem?

[Tj Bassi]

My wife and I are building a new home (scheduled to finish late Feb) with a basement large enough to build a nice audio room. Although the builder was opposed to making too many modifications to the plans, we were able to organize the basement to wind up with an (almost) unobstructed 31x24 room with a 9'5" ceiling height. The walls are poured concrete almost a foot thick, I hired an independent architect to design the foundation drain system and chose a lot on the uphill side of a mostly-completed development. The basement drains, along with the gutters, are tied directly into the township storm sewers, something which has only become allowable this year. We even upgraded the electric with a 100 amp sub-panel just for the proposed room.

The only thing I overlooked was the fact that the kitchen is directly overhead the central area of the planned room. In my effort to assure there would be no problem with water ingress into the basement, I did not take into account the fridge, dishwasher, or sink on the upstairs level. Now, I'm sure some steps can be taken to prevent all but a major catastrophe. The plumber is routing his piping as clean as possible, and we are going to seal up the flooring area best we can when all is finished. I've talked with an architect about building a ceiling structure that will capture and channel water in the event of a kitchen boo-boo and he is working on something.

My wife reminds me that in the eleven years we were in our old home, we (mostly I) only flooded the kitchen once and not more than a cup made it to the basement. But the room below was not full of audio gear.

Our new home has space upstairs that could be used as a dedicated room, but that space is rather small-ish and the wife has requested I keep my hands off :devil:

So I'm left with a decent space that may.....or may not....have a problem. The space is too good to pass up and its nice to dream big, so I try to comfort myself with the notion that this isnt the problem it seems to be.

Sorry for such a long post. I wanted to ask if anyone on the group had a similiar situation with overhead plumbing and what (if anything) had been done as a preventative measure.

Tj

 

[risabet]

You can worry about any number of things when building/remodeling. I really doubt that you have much to worry about. The only thing I would make sure of is to attach any reefer water lines with copper tubing to avoid any ruptured lines there. Other than that enjoy your dedicated room.

 

[amey01]

In my 30 years alive I've never seen a flooded kitchen - mine or anyone elses. If you were upstairs I'd say there'd be more chance of the roof blowing off in a storm and rain coming in. You're lucky enough to have a dedicated room. Just enjoy it!!

 

[Tj Bassi]

Both are good points, and my wife seems to concur. She reminds me that even if I take over the upstairs room :devil:, there is still a second water heater and air conditioning unit in the attic over that, so little would be gained by the move.

She also reminded me that it was "I" who fell asleep once while doing the dishes and turned the kitchen into a mini-pool.

Risabet....thanks for the tip...I called the plumbing contractor and added the copper line to the list....

The upstairs room would be a great place to put a second rig though :devil::devil:

Tj

 

[C.A.P]

Plan for the worse and hope for the best ! I did Hardwood floors for 20 years and the number one reason we had to come back and re sand the floors was WATER damage from leaky dishwashers or refrigerators ! Use copper lines for supply, and the water feed lines to the appliances use wire mesh with regular pipe fittings, not the 1/4 inch plastic with a compression fitting ! That is asking for water on the amp !

 

[JonFo]

T.J. I’m in exactly the same boat. My theater is right under the kitchen / dinning room areas.
The rear area of the room has quite a few pipes running around in the ceiling, but they are inside the engineered flooring and far enough away from screws coming up from the room below.

I do not have any ‘water catching’ devices, so I run a risk if there is a leak or a big problem upstairs.
But we’ve never had a mishap with kitchen appliances or plumbing.

However, all the audio equipment is in a section completely opposite from the kitchen, so while one of my rear Sequels could potentially get wet, none of the main gear would.

Makes one think that the best way to build a theater / audio room is to do a separate structure totally focused on that purpose. I mean, people build detached garages for their cars, why not a detached structure for our systems (some of which are worth more than the sum of the cars) ?

 

[Gordon Gray]

Hi Tj,

From a civil engineering perspective, I wouldn't necessarilly be concerned about the upper floor leaking and causing water to come into your basement area. Others have spoken to this possibility. However, I would be concerned about a large storm event (in civil engineering terms, the preverbial 100 year storm, which can occur more often than one event per 100 years) that would cause the water to back up in the storm sewer system (insufficient pipe capacity to carry the water) and eventually come up thru your basement floor drain.

If the storm sewer system is somehow tied to the sanitary sewer system (some municipalities still allow this to save money) and that backs up, what can I say. Why any Public Works Department would allow connecting the house(s) gutter system into the storm sewer system is a mystery to me. With this setup, you are not only loading the storm system with surface runoff but the runoff captured by the individual house gutter systems.

Don't mean to alarm you but storm sewer systems are generally not designed for a "large" rainfall event. An analogy is designing a church parking lot so it can provide enough parking spaces for Christmas Eve mass.

My thoughts for what its worth.

GG

 

[amey01]

Makes one think that the best way to build a theater / audio room is to do a separate structure totally focused on that purpose. I mean, people build detached garages for their cars, why not a detached structure for our systems (some of which are worth more than the sum of the cars) ?

Good good point - can I take an excerpt of that to my wife?

 

[theWB]

Hi Tj,

From a civil engineering perspective, I wouldn't necessarilly be concerned about the upper floor leaking and causing water to come into your basement area. Others have spoken to this possibility. However, I would be concerned about a large storm event (in civil engineering terms, the preverbial 100 year storm, which can occur more often than one event per 100 years) that would cause the water to back up in the storm sewer system (insufficient pipe capacity to carry the water) and eventually come up thru your basement floor drain.

If the storm sewer system is somehow tied to the sanitary sewer system (some municipalities still allow this to save money) and that backs up, what can I say. Why any Public Works Department would allow connecting the house(s) gutter system into the storm sewer system is a mystery to me. With this setup, you are not only loading the storm system with surface runoff but the runoff captured by the individual house gutter systems.

Don't mean to alarm you but storm sewer systems are generally not designed for a "large" rainfall event. An analogy is designing a church parking lot so it can provide enough parking spaces for Christmas Eve mass.

My thoughts for what its worth.

GG

TJ,
In agreement with Gordon, Just 2 weeks ago here in Chicago it was 60 degrees and we got major rain. I get a call at 4am from my alarm company that I have water in the basement. Go downstairs to discover sump pumps out and water is rushing in through the sump pit. Nothing I can do, nothing opens till 6am. By the time I pick up a new sump pump and get it installed, carpets ruined along with a bunch of xmas decorations in storage, took in about 1/2 inch of water. Insurance didn't cover, cost me 3 grand to replace the carpet. Thank God my HT is upstairs.My house is only 7 years old and sump pump went out. I now have a second pump in case it ever happens again I don't have to worry about running out to pick one up.

If you live in an area that gets a lot of rain, you also have to worry about what happens if during a heavy rain storm the power goes out. The battery backups I've had for sump pumps never seem to last more than an hour, Luckily it hasn't been a problem yet.

 

[Tj Bassi]

I tried to log in late last night to re-join the thread but wound up having wireless problems.....

I wanted to thank everyone who has responded; all of the ideas are great and are definitely worth serious consideration. To respond to a few:

The plumber is now aware of my concerns and has been asked to use as much copper as possible in the kitchen area, and is going to route some of the plumbing around the proposed room area if possible.

Like Jonathan, I will be able to keep the majority of the equipment at ends of the room where there is little/no chance of water exposure. Although I have never spiked my equipment in the past, I have all of my original M/L spikes and am thinking about machining longer ones, to situate the equipment a good 1.5 inches off of the floor.

My wife :devil: said NO to a dedicated outbuilding just for audio use! Or to be exact, she said to make due with the basement for now (???? Not sure if thats a yes or no.)


On Gordon's points.....hmmmmm...good ones. Our home is situated fairly high in the area and the storm drains lead to a retention area in the lower part of the development. Here in New Jersey we've had a TON of rain the past few months and from what I've seen, our corner of the development has stayed dry. The builder mentioned that the homes in the lower sections will not be piped into the stormwater basins and that not all of the homes on the hill are either.

Wayne-sorry to hear about your recent problems. My company's production shop is located adjacent to a large river and we worry constantly about the three sump pumps that keep the place dry. One pump is on A/C with a generator backup and two are on battery, and we still have to keep on top of them. For the house, I think I will have one of each type pump and keep a spare on the shelf.

Also interesting, the fellow who built three doors down from us has been there over a year and claims to have never seen water in his sump pit, even during the recent torrents. His home is somewhat identical to mine and at the same elevation (we're both on a hill).

Time will tell. Talking to the builder this morning, the home was supposed to be finished late Feb, but late March is looking more realistic. We wont start the room construction for a few months after that so we will have time to see how tight the basement really is.

So in all, lots of great points here, guys, thanks !!! Much of it I can act on while the house is still under construction and its a good feeling to know I dont have to scrap the plans for the dedicated room.

Again, another long post for which I apologize, and obviously I still havent figured out the multi-quote thing.

Tj

 

[amey01]

Wayne-sorry to hear about your recent problems. My company's production shop is located adjacent to a large river and we worry constantly about the three sump pumps that keep the place dry. One pump is on A/C with a generator backup and two are on battery, and we still have to keep on top of them. For the house, I think I will have one of each type pump and keep a spare on the shelf.

Tj

How do you guys build over there?

What is a sump pump and why do you need one?

Doesn't the water just drain off the roof and into the stormwater to be magically taken away and never seen again? (unless you go to swim at Bondi beach.....haha).

 

[theWB]

How do you guys build over there?

What is a sump pump and why do you need one?

Doesn't the water just drain off the roof and into the stormwater to be magically taken away and never seen again? (unless you go to swim at Bondi beach.....haha).

Adam,

Here in my part of America, many homes have basements that can be as far as 10 feet underground. We have what is called drain tiles that go around the base of the foundation of the basement on the outside of the house. A drain tile is actually a pipe that is perforated on the top and solid on the bottom and leads into what is called a sump pit in one corner of the basement on the inside of the house. This keeps all the moisture from seeping into the basement through the foundation.

Sump pits are usually about 3 feet deep and a 1 1'2 feet in diameter. A sump pump is a pump that sits in the pit and pumps the water out of the pit and into the stormsewer.

 

[amey01]

Adam,

Here in my part of America, many homes have basements that can be as far as 10 feet underground. We have what is called drain tiles that go around the base of the foundation of the basement on the outside of the house. A drain tile is actually a pipe that is perforated on the top and solid on the bottom and leads into what is called a sump pit in one corner of the basement on the inside of the house. This keeps all the moisture from seeping into the basement through the foundation.

Sump pits are usually about 3 feet deep and a 1 1'2 feet in diameter. A sump pump is a pump that sits in the pit and pumps the water out of the pit and into the stormsewer.

Thanks for that - very interesting!

So the walls of the basement are fully enclosed by the ground, or is there a certain amount of excavation? Regardless, I see why you would need a pump if the thing is that far under the ground.

PS. Isn't it easier (and cheaper) just to build upwards if you need extra rooms or am I missing something?

Sorry - I love architecture and I find the differences in building standards around the world amazing.....

 

[Tj Bassi]

I'll have to sort thru some photos and upload one of the foundation/basement in progress. The basement is about ten feet deep, with seven feet of that completely underground, along with another 18 inches or so for the footings. So the builder digs a pretty deep hole to get started.....

The ultimate height of the structure is determined by the township building department and local codes. Most areas have a limit as to how high you can go in a residential area, usually two stories.

Tj

 

[twich54]

Ok, with all this talk about water , water everywhere !!! thought I would chime in with some words of wisdom. Do you know from where your water comes....public or your own well ?? Ph, acidity levels, hardness, etc.
My reason for mentioning this is that hard well water can and will eat through copper(even the thick stuff, "M" I believe) in time, whereas CPVC WILL hold up better over time.

My best friend is a plumber and two years ago we re-plumbed my entire house, which was only twenty five years old, not fun. Myself if I was builing from scratch I would never put copper supply lines in areas behind walls, etc. If repairs are needed CPVC is MUCH eaiser !

 

[Tj Bassi]

Dave-

My only point in mentioning copper specifically was that I wanted the plumber to avoid the nylon tubing and compression fittings commonly found on kitchen appliances these days.

From what they've done so far, it looks as if the majority of the feeds are copper and the wastewater are CPVC.

In that development the water is supplied by the township, but I came from a home with a well (very hard water) and can attest to how tough it can be on plumbing. Even with a new water softener system we still were constantly rebuilding toilets, faucets etc.

Tj

 

[twich54]

Dave-

My only point in mentioning copper specifically was that I wanted the plumber to avoid the nylon tubing and compression fittings commonly found on kitchen appliances these days. Tj

Tj, Good point, but here's another one to remember, I found out the hard way !, with respect to the small water line that feeds your fridges ice maker, my original was copper and it did not hold up near as well as the plastic / nylon one that is in there now. Moving the fridge in and out for semi-annual cleanings weakins the copper moreso than the vinyl, after about five years I developed a crack and subsequent leak. Properly done, I can honestly say I have never had a problem with a compression fitting.

FWIW, I've noticed alot of new construction going with polybutal type tubing , all feeding from a master "junction box". easy to bend, easy to route, it's as if the plumbing guys are trying to mirror image the electricians !

 

[slowGEEZR]

Sort of off topic, but my new house being built in Round Rock, TX. just passed its city inspection of its electrical and plumbing. Round Rock is notorious for failing new construction for this (they have very tough inspections). Can't wait to set up my media room when we move in. Actually, I'm most anxious to add my new toy to the garage!

 

[theWB]

So the walls of the basement are fully enclosed by the ground, or is there a certain amount of excavation? Regardless, I see why you would need a pump if the thing is that far under the ground.

Adam,
Many types of basements here in America.The following are the most often built. Full basement is completely enclosed by the ground as you say, a half basement is half below the ground and half above, usually this design is what we call raised ranches, only one more level above the basement. Then there is whats called a walk out basement, home is built on a hill where on the back of the home the basement is completely above ground, but completely below ground on the front of the house.

PS. Isn't it easier (and cheaper) just to build upwards if you need extra rooms or am I missing something?

As TJ says many towns do not allow to build 3 levels above ground.

 

[rhd1953]

Don't forget power protection and...

Don't forget power protection. I think you can even get APC (surge?) protection at/in your breaker/contol panel. I use APC Line R 1200 watt line regulators/surge protectors for my stereo, tv, and computer equipment. The protect against power sags and surges and spikes. All of which can occur even on clear days with no wind.

Suggest metal sink drain pipes, the plastic drain pipes tend to slip off and...instant flood.

I'm in Iowa (super-sponge soil) and when the ground is staturated, a heavy rain will result in water flow through the basement of my building (built in 1876) apartment house. The top of the hill is only `10 feet higher!!! This soil will ooze water across a sidewalk, even if it hasn't rained for a week. Your new construction should not have a problem, of course.

The high ceiling in your place makes a big audio difference. I've lived with a 10' ceiling for 6 years now, I hate to think of moving back to just 8' ceilings.