My new room sucks...

[Rich]

So I think:
2 MiniTraps
2 MicroTraps

Make sure you get the HF mini traps if you are going with real traps. The standard Mini's are reflective in the high end. You want traps that evenly absorb from about 250 hz. all the way up. That is the HF mini.

I don't really recommend the microtraps for first reflection points. They just don't absorb enough mid-bass. Please, Joey, spend some time talking on the phone to either Ethan (at Real Traps) or Glenn (at GIK) before you make any decisions and order anything. They have a lot of knowledge and can help make sure you make the right decisions for your needs.

 

[David Matz]

Make sure you get the HF mini traps if you are going with real traps. The standard Mini's are reflective in the high end. You want traps that evenly absorb from about 250 hz. all the way up. That is the HF mini.

I don't really recommend the microtraps for first reflection points. They just don't absorb enough mid-bass. Please, Joey, spend some time talking on the phone to either Ethan (at Real Traps) or Glenn (at GIK) before you make any decisions and order anything. They have a lot of knowledge and can help make sure you make the right decisions for your needs.

Rich,

Good point about talking to the pros. I have found that adding room treatments to a room follows sort of an S-curve. At first adding a few, the changes are small but meaningful, then changes explode exponentially as you add a lot of traps and your jaw drops, then changes slow as you add more and more.

Joey, if you add only a few you will just confirm your statement that you have a challenging room and that stats may not for you. I think you should add a lot of traps in the corners behind your speakers and blocking the windows, JUST TO START. Burke virtually got his entire wall behind the speakers covered (among many other things), and his Summits sound awesome.

 

[User211]

Look at this as a learning experience... for the true audiophile "shops" for somewhere to live based on the potential acoustics of the bode under question.

I know that this was a factor when I moved 2 years ago. Which is to some extent insane, of course, but true, nonetheless!

I'd bet a large amount of what you are experiencing is just due to "the change". And changing rooms IS a massive sonic change. You will find you get progressively more used to it in a week or two. My advice is to do nothing major for a while until you have calmed down about it - don't do anything irrational - you can't really trust yourself at the moment and will be suffering from a certain amount of "lack of faith" in your hobby, or even in MLs themselves (god forbid!).

I bet you will come to realise that the room is actually better than you at first thought, once you have lived with it for a while, and your brain forgets how the old room sounded. At the moment, there is a sense that something is wrong JUST BECAUSE it doesn't sound familiar.

Hm - maybe I should do a degree in psycho-acoustics or something

 

[benleeys]

Joey,
JonFo has a layout of the treatment in his room here -

http://gator11.hostgator.com/~tdacquis/forum/showthread.php?t=5435&highlight=Room+treatment&page=12

It may give you a good idea of what traps are appropriate and where to place them for maximum effect. I adapted it for my room and am very pleased with the results.

 

[Gordon Gray]

Hi Kevin,

Thank you for your input. I must admit my room is probably a bit less "live" than yours but your observations are certainly relevant to the topic at hand.

One point you make, which I fully agree with, is that a more lively acoustic environment can be easily overloaded due to its reflective nature and finding the appropriate volume level for the room is one of the keys to having a satisfying listening experience.

Personally, I believe that is a benefit to mitigate any hearing damage caused by excessive DB levels. And you can listen to music, at a reasonable / satisfying level, and still hold a conversation with someone without shouting at the other person. What a concept.

GG

PS: Joey, send me a PM. Will gladly do what I can do to assist one of our esteemed ML Club members. FWIW, the comment made by one of the members regarding change is quite appropriate. My sense is that, if you become accustomed to the new environment and work with it, you will ultimately find a better listening experience.

 

[jtwrace]

Hi Kevin,

reflective nature and finding the appropriate volume level for the room is one of the keys to having a satisfying listening experience.

GG

Gordon,

This is VERY accurate. When I was at RMAF last year, I was in the GamuT room. I spent a lot of time listening to the big L9 speakers. I kept watching Lars (president/designer) when he would turn the volume up. He would not only listen but he would watch the cone of the driver. After about an hour I asked what he was doing. At first, he just smiled. Then after he realized I wasn't leaving until he told me, we got somewhere. Basically what he was doing was making sure that he didn't over extend the driver "throw". He also knew what the acoustics of the room were so he would never over do it with the volume. I have noticed even at home with my stats there is a absolute IDEAL volume level for this room. I must say that it is staggering what a difference it can make.

Joey-you will be fine...

 

[kwr]

Gordon,
I have noticed even at home with my stats there is a absolute IDEAL volume level for this room. I must say that it is staggering what a difference it can make.

Joey-you will be fine...

I think with ML the room will "distort" well before the speaker. I admire the incredible setup that people such as Jonfo have but it is possible to have a musically satisfying experience in a reflective room . I strongly suspect the that the nature of the dipole radiation is helpful with the lesser side, ceiling and floor interaction cf conventional cone speakers.

I personally find that the vast majority of demos I have been to that the volume is too high and is overloading the room. I have no interest in ear bleeding levels of reproduction and consequently can be happy in a reflective room. I am not suggesting for a second that it is an ideal setup but it can work well.

Kevin

 

[jtwrace]

I think with ML the room will "distort" well before the speaker. I admire the incredible setup that people such as Jonfo have but it is possible to have a musically satisfying experience in a reflective room . I strongly suspect the that the nature of the dipole radiation is helpful with the lesser side, ceiling and floor interaction cf conventional cone speakers.

I personally find that the vast majority of demos I have been to that the volume is too high and is overloading the room. I have no interest in ear bleeding levels of reproduction and consequently can be happy in a reflective room. I am not suggesting for a second that it is an ideal setup but it can work well.

Kevin

Yes, of course.

 

[timm]

Maybe Joeyitis has settled in?

Too early though... I don't want to do a major speaker overhaul just yet. We shall see...

It's a fun time though, as always!!

joey - just my opinion - but, I think everything is in play now. New room - you are starting from scratch with positioning,rake etc... I don't recall if you put the larger spikes on yours to get them more perpendicular... well that may not be the ticket anymore if you did because you will lose the highs/mids if you move around the room with that setup.

Good luck and I certainly wouldn't dump anything because of the room... A larger room should give you benefits - and I am betting it will in time.

 

[Craig]

Joey,
That's actually a very nice room for an audio system. It looks much nicer than your former dorm room. There is tons of excellent advice on how to make it sound much better. I don't think I can add anything other to consider what you have for a coffee table. A hard surfaced coffee table that sits in its intended location (in front of a sofa) reflects sound right to the listener position. I've found improvements in my audio room when I removed the table from that position. Glass top tables are even worse.

I now use a leather ottoman in place of a coffee table to avoid that particular acoustic issue.

I consider your room to be a blank palette with plenty of potential to sound much better than what you came from.

 

[JonFo]

Joey, I second all the advice Rich and others have given about adding substantially more absorption to the room. Specifically a pair of stand-mounted Mini-traps HF right behind the Summits is the where I'd start.

That alone will make a big, big difference. Add another dozen traps to the room, and you won't believe the change.

Regardless of speaker brands and models, room treatments are a basic foundation for good sound. Without them, you are literally hearing more of the room than the equipment.

 

[JonFo]

I think with ML the room will "distort" well before the speaker. I admire the incredible setup that people such as Jonfo have but it is possible to have a musically satisfying experience in a reflective room . I strongly suspect the that the nature of the dipole radiation is helpful with the lesser side, ceiling and floor interaction cf conventional cone speakers.

I personally find that the vast majority of demos I have been to that the volume is too high and is overloading the room. I have no interest in ear bleeding levels of reproduction and consequently can be happy in a reflective room. I am not suggesting for a second that it is an ideal setup but it can work well.

Kevin

Kevin, Completely agree that room resonances are probably the worst offenders in terms of what we perceive as 'distortion'. Even in my original ideally shaped room, the resonances were too much.

I do have to say, your Monolith setup picture made me wince, and even my wife did an 'OMG ' when she saw the pic.

That is indeed a case of overly reflective environment, I'd almost recommend dropping back to monopole speakers in that room, and something with rolled off highs as well.
As you say, good for background music, but turn it up and hello resonances.

If you are ever in Atlanta, stop on by to hear my setup to see what Monoliths are capable of. Or maybe don’t, as you’ll be moving them to a dedicated room right afterwards

As for demo’s, you are right, people turn them up waay to high. I actually have people asking me to turn up my rig during demos, and that’s when the avg. SPL is around 90+ (which is quite loud).

But then, the room doesn’t ring as much as it did before my latest massive dose of treatments. Which BTW- are not over yet. Look for part two of the Room Treatments thread to crank up on the 4th of July weekend., you won’t believe what’s in store

 

[stereoman]

Hey Joey, nice area rug. There are at least 3 of us Summit owners who shop at Ikea.
As you can see from the photo below, my room is similar to yours. It took me nearly two years to get the room acoustics right. I've taken a different path than some others on this board, as follows:
1. TV sits well back from the speakers.
2. No treatments on the windows behind the speakers.
3. Echo Buster Phase-4 Diffusion/Absorption towers in the corners behind the speakers.
4. Area carpet in front of the speakers.
5. Echo Busters (both regular and Double Busters) at the first reflection points on the side walls, and on the wall behind the listening area.
6. Vibration control under all electronics and under the spikes on the speakers.
7. Digital Room Correction (See the link for the Copland DRC205 (http://www.copland.dk/products.htm).
.. . . an interesting article on DRC --> http://www.stereophile.com/reference/108tech/

After much experimenting I prefer the liveliness produced by the untreated windows.

The easiest change I made to my room resulted in the biggest improvement. The Copland Digital Room Correction device widened the soundstage and improved the sound clarity.

 

[C.A.P]

The easiest change I made to my room resulted in the biggest improvement. The Copland Digital Room Correction device widened the soundstage and improved the sound clarity.

Although I am not discounting you or your Copeland. It seems to me to be a type of equalizer or processor in some sorts. That alone alters the sound. Purest would say that your degrading the sound as it was meant to be through your amp and pre amp and source. Me I am all about it sounding the best ! If it works better than without and it works for you ! Great !

I still would address the room first before I would try electronically altering my systems sound. Experiment with the room . Move the stuff around where its not normal or ascetically correct but may sound wonderful. There is no rules in audio. your not going to get a 15 yard placement penalty. I again stand by the fact that door walls make horrible rear walls. They are either suck holes or bright spots with terrible reflective sound !

 

[sleepysurf]

GIK Table Traps!

The plot thickens! GIK Acoustics just announced their new Table Trap... a combo bass trap/end table... BRILLIANT idea IMHO. Heck, I've now got TWO WAF-approved locations where I could place them in my room (though not corners)! I wonder how effective they would be along a side wall? More details here...
[URL="http://www.gikacoustics.com/gik_elite_table.html"]http://www.gikacoustics.com/gik_elite_table.html[/URL]

 

[MiTT]

I like those a LOT. Any idea on price Alan? I could see a couple of those in my dedicated room.

 

[DTB300]

I like those a LOT. Any idea on price Alan? I could see a couple of those in my dedicated room.

$300 each plus shipping as shown on their website.

 

[sleepysurf]

Yeah, only $299 ea (introductory price), then going up to $399 ea. Not sure how much shipping is. I'm DEFINITELY getting one (maybe two). I already have GIK's Guilford of Maine swatches, so it's just a matter of my wife signing off on the color!

 

[kwr]

I do have to say, your Monolith setup picture made me wince, and even my wife did an 'OMG ' when she saw the pic.

That is indeed a case of overly reflective environment, I'd almost recommend dropping back to monopole speakers in that room, and something with rolled off highs as well.
As you say, good for background music, but turn it up and hello resonances.

If you are ever in Atlanta, stop on by to hear my setup to see what Monoliths are capable of.

Hi Jon,

I would love to hear your setup but can't see myself getting to Atlanta.

I knew the photo would probably result in you beating your head against the nearest (untreated) wall.

I know this is heretical but it works surprisingly well except at higher volumes. When I get a chance later in the day I will write a little about living and music and compromise and why I think this highly unusual setup works. I do have a much more orthodox non ML setup in another room

Kevin

 

[Joey_V]

Thanks all! All your replies, comments, tips have been duly noted.

The room is highly reflective and I am beginning to think (as JonFo said) about "monopole" designs.

However, I'm going to try my hand at the Summits in different positions in my room - see if I can get them to sound as they did before. Perhaps getting them on the long wall and not against glass might do the trick? Then get some room treatments to improve it further?

I am wrestling the idea of putting them up on audiogon for local sale/interest and just gauge the interest I get for them... then I can better move forward with system changes.

If interest is good, then perhaps think harder about monopole speakers (new Cremona Auditors M with sub, 802D, Cremona M?)....

If interest is not good and I get lowballed, then I'm going to live with the Summits and optimize them as best as I could.

I dont know.. it seems rash but I miss my sound system. There are days when I just wish it were like before the move - where all I could think about were which CDs to buy and listen to when I got home where I pulled back my computer chair to the listening spot.

I went 2 years without changing the speakers. I really like ML, you could pull back my history with it from my first threads and see exactly how I started with this whole hobby.

I guess I'm looking at it this way:

The new room is definitely a challenge and is it fate that I got stuck with this room? I know this is teaching me about room acoustics like I haven't experienced before and this is going to further my knowledge about this aspect of our hobby. Now, am I also supposed to get a different type of speaker and learn from that also?

This hobby for me is not a static one, I have heard a good ML system - perhaps it's time to also hear a good dynamic one in my room?

I don't know... I'm also interested in the execution and design of other speakers - how else am I to grow in this hobby and how else am I to experience new things? Perhaps the room is the catalyst for change....

Or, then again, perhaps barring the philosophical thinking - maybe the new room is just that... a new room. And I'm supposed to live with it.