My new room sucks...

[sleepysurf]

For starters, I would get HEAVY drapes for the double windows (? sliding glass doors), +/- some (removeable) absorptive panels behind them. Keep the drapes closed for serious listening. In addition to the extreme toe-in, I would get 2' x 4' 2" panels to place behind the Summits (just lean them against wall if you don't want perm mount). A couple of corner bass-traps would be helpful as well. The fireplace to the right is likely creating havoc; so an acoustic panel in front of it will help. A big pile of real/synthetic logs inside should help eliminate reverb. You can likewise put a matching treatment on the door/wall to the left. Looks like you have plenty of space to the rear of the room (behind your couch), and it appears to be fairly asymmetric, so probably not hurting sonics. I wouldn't think you'd need any ceiling treatments, but try everything else first and then decide. Ideally, see if you can "borrow" some acoustic panels from local buddies, and experiment with their effect before laying out $$. You could certainly make DIY panels, but if you're like me, time is more valuable than money, so buying inexpensive panels might be easiest. A lot of us are in the same acoustic boat, so hang in there... it'll all come together in the end!

 

[DTB300]

I know it's going to cost me to fix up the room, but I'm prepared for the investment... I just need to make sure that whatever treatments I get, I can reuse in my next place (and the next, etc...).

GIK and Real Traps have stands for their products for easy moving for places like in front of your windows behind your rig and in front of the fireplace. Also both products have hanging capabilities so removing them and taking them with you is a breeze.

To me and looking at your pictures, treatments in the front of the room behind both speakers, in the left corner, along the left wall next to the speaker and further down the wall, the two corners on the right by the fireplace and in front of the fireplace would be a great start. About 8 traps for starters would be my guess, but talk with Glenn or Ethan (depending on who you decide to buy from) to get some expert advice. See how that sounds, then attack the back wall next with absorption in the corners. Then ask them about absorption and diffusion for the rear wall - you sit pretty far away, so you may be able to benefit from diffusion.

Even with the extreme toe-in you like, you still have 1st reflections at some point in the room which cause issues.

BTW, nice place...wish I had that kind of space available to me.

 

[Joey_V]

Dan, Alan, Seth,

You guys are right and that's EXACTLY what I was thinking about. The system actually sounds better against the fireplace (to the right) because of the lack of glass in the rear (or front wall, depending on how you look at it) of the Summits. However, the dramatic improvement with the towels alone (1 hung on each panel) confirms my suspicion that it is the back wave from the wall that is killing me.

I was thinking the exact thing guys.... portable (on stands) treatments that I can swing around the system. I definitely have to get some regardless if I stick with the Summits or move to a different pair.

Thanks fellas....

Place is nice, much better than the old cell that I had.

As we speak, Eva Cassidy (from the National Meet 07) is playing in the background... towels are hung on the panels.... and sounds good!

It's only a matter of time. I'm going to go audition more speakers today... see what else is out there.

Joey

 

[benleeys]

........I would get 2' x 4' 2" panels to place behind the Summits (just lean them against wall if you don't want perm mount). A couple of corner bass-traps would be helpful as well.....

Ethan's Mondo (4-1/4") and Mini (3-1/4") traps are thick enough to stand by themselves. A Mondo HF trap stood directly behind each Summit plus a Mini HF trap placed by the side wall do wonders for imaging.

 

[Rich]

Joey,

I strongly suggest you try a less extreme toe-in. What worked for you in your previous environment probably will not work in this room. By stubbornly sticking with what worked before, you may be missing out on the sound potential of this room. Try moving the further speakers apart from each other (closer to the side walls), perhaps a little further out from the front wall, and toe them such that you are listening to the inner one-third of the panel. If you can move them two feet forward, six more inches apart, and toe them appropriately, I think you would get better sound immediately.

Your towels aren't working because they only absorb some high frequencies. But there are still lots of mids and mid-bass frequencies coming through to muddy your image. You have to get some full frequency absorbers for your front and side walls, no question about it.

 

[twich54]

... towels are hung on the panels.... and sounds good!

It's only a matter of time. I'm going to go audition more speakers today... see what else is out there.

Well, look at it this way....you don't need a clothes line now do you !! ??

I'm getting the feeling that you are looking for a reason to part with your Summitts ??

FWIW, I agree wholeheartedly with Dan, Bernard, Rich & others, your room as it is now is an "acoustic pinball machine". With wise choices of treatments you'll get it dialed in.....be paitent !

Also as Rich stated, that's some extreme toe-in your using, while it worked well in your previous enviroment (smaller demensions, nearfield listening), IMO, once you have given yourself more space it becomes much less desirable.

 

[IWalker]

I'm getting the feeling that you are looking for a reason to part with your Summitts ??

We call it Joeyitis for a reason! :devil:

 

[sleepysurf]

...
Also as Rich stated, that's some extreme toe-in your using, while it worked well in your previous enviroment (smaller demensions, nearfield listening), IMO, once you have given yourself more space it becomes much less desirable.

Joey, might as well play with the toe-in now, and see if it helps or hinders. You can repeat the experiment once you get acoustic treatments in place. I've tried minimal to extreme toe-in with my Summits, and right now have essentially the same degree toe-in that you do. Keep us posted!

 

[Joey_V]

Joey,

I strongly suggest you try a less extreme toe-in. What worked for you in your previous environment probably will not work in this room. By stubbornly sticking with what worked before, you may be missing out on the sound potential of this room. Try moving the further speakers apart from each other (closer to the side walls), perhaps a little further out from the front wall, and toe them such that you are listening to the inner one-third of the panel. If you can move them two feet forward, six more inches apart, and toe them appropriately, I think you would get better sound immediately.

Your towels aren't working because they only absorb some high frequencies. But there are still lots of mids and mid-bass frequencies coming through to muddy your image. You have to get some full frequency absorbers for your front and side walls, no question about it.

Agree Rich.... I will try toe in variations. And yes, the towels absorb only the highest of frequencies - absorbers are a necessity now.

 

[Joey_V]

Well, look at it this way....you don't need a clothes line now do you !! ??

I'm getting the feeling that you are looking for a reason to part with your Summitts ??

Ah.... one must be open to what's out there. New place, new set up, new speakers?

I'm not going to keep my options limited - I like the Summits a lot, but now, I feel like I need something with a little wider dispersion for the rest of the people at the apartment.

It's tough - if it were in my bedroom and only for me, I wouldn't mind the narrow sweetspot of the ESLs.... like it was before. Nowadays, with people and friends over, I feel like I need something a little more "communal".

That said, I'm hardpressed to find a speaker that sounds natural like the Summits in the sweetspot.

But regardless, I need some acoustic treatments for this new place - I'm a believer in room being a component now ala Dan.

 

[Diamonds]

Joey -

I have a harsh room and I got rid of my Summits for the very reason you speak of. You are also correct that their dispersion is not great so you may be better off with a new speaker. I have the Dali MS-5 speakers and in my opinion (I lived with both the Summits and Dali's at the same time) they were better across the board except maybe they left a little in the midrange.

They carry the room way better than the Summits ever did. When I stand up or move to the right or left I don't completely loose the music.

For my room I am tossing around the idea of getting the CLX because I think the dispersion would be better and if you stood up you wouldn't totally loose the music.

Thoughts?

 

[MiTT]

That said, I'm hardpressed to find a speaker that sounds natural like the Summits in the sweetspot.

Joey, I think you should be patient and work with the room first. You already possess a world class system, just not a world class room.

However, if I were to switch to a dynamic speaker that acted like a 'stat as far as transient speed and neutrality with a sweet midrange - Avalon Indra buddy. Don't drop coin until you listen to them.

You can thank me later.

 

[DTB300]

Ah.... one must be open to what's out there. New place, new set up, new speakers?

Keeping ones options open in the hobby can drive you crazy with what to choose and what to do, but hey who am I/we to say what is best for you.

It's tough - if it were in my bedroom and only for me, I wouldn't mind the narrow sweetspot of the ESLs.... like it was before. Nowadays, with people and friends over, I feel like I need something a little more "communal".

Sorry but I have to ask.... Is the system for you or the people coming over to visit?? Sounds like you are more concerned for them rather than you.

I can understand about having folks over to entertain and having some music playing. But if your concern is like Diamond where moving around and standing up is an issue for keeping the sound, then stats may not the beast to own. There are some great choices out there outside of the stat world to listen to.

 

[Joey_V]

I can understand about having folks over to entertain and having some music playing. But if your concern is like Diamond where moving around and standing up is an issue for keeping the sound, then stats may not the beast to own. There are some great choices out there outside of the stat world to listen to.

Similar to that Dan.... I just feel that now that I have some elbow room in place, I move around a bit more than I used to in my bedroom and I seem to run into the troubles that plague all stats - dispersion. And when people come over and we hang out, not all of us can hang around the sweet spot... and I'm not talking just imaging/staging - I'm talking about the drop off in highs and even midrange once I leave the area covered by the panels. Instruments don't have the same bite or zing when far off-center. I just notice it a lot more now that I'm moving about.

I understand there are a lot out there, but it's such a double edged sword for me. It's tough to have the great attributes of a good panel speaker like the Summits and at the same time have the great attributes of leading edge dynamic speakers all in one package while AT a budget.

 

[Gordon Gray]

Hi Joey,

I renew my previous offer to assist you with your room. My listening rooms, over the past 8 years, have had mucho glass as the wall surface that interacts with the back wave.

You can verify with Rich regarding my current room and his impressions of "its" sound. I really like listening to music in something other than a cave with no natural light, assuming that's an option.

As for all the acoustic treatment suggested by others, good luck. Looks like you have a nice place and I personally find loading a room with this stuff to be aesthetically problematic or, in the worst case, trashing the room.

Maybe others aren't as sensitive to this issue as myself but I've found several ways to tame a live room and still have it look like a living space and not a sound studio. I recognize that there are products that look reasonably attractive and don't call attention to themselves but I've always tried to avoid, if at all possible.

In closing, I respectfully disagree that ML's can't / will not work well in a live acoustic environment, without excessive acoustic treatment, based on 8 years of personal experience to the contrary.

GG

 

[Bernard]

Similar to that Dan.... I just feel that now that I have some elbow room in place, I move around a bit more than I used to in my bedroom and I seem to run into the troubles that plague all stats - dispersion. And when people come over and we hang out, not all of us can hang around the sweet spot... and I'm not talking just imaging/staging - I'm talking about the drop off in highs and even midrange once I leave the area covered by the panels. Instruments don't have the same bite or zing when far off-center. I just notice it a lot more now that I'm moving about.

Joey, it seems to me that you are acknowledging the limitations of stats, and then complaining about limitations that are precisely what you acknowledged. Maybe as a start you need to spend some time alone in one position in a nice chair, listening to music, and forget the analysis. Just enjoy the music ! Or has Joeyitis settled in ?

 

[theWB]

Joey, listen to music, and forget the analysis. Just enjoy the music !

X2 :music:

 

[Joey_V]

Hi Joey,

I renew my previous offer to assist you with your room. My listening rooms, over the past 8 years, have had mucho glass as the wall surface that interacts with the back wave.

You can verify with Rich regarding my current room and his impressions of "its" sound. I really like listening to music in something other than a cave with no natural light, assuming that's an option.

As for all the acoustic treatment suggested by others, good luck. Looks like you have a nice place and I personally find loading a room with this stuff to be aesthetically problematic or, in the worst case, trashing the room.

Maybe others aren't as sensitive to this issue as myself but I've found several ways to tame a live room and still have it look like a living space and not a sound studio. I recognize that there are products that look reasonably attractive and don't call attention to themselves but I've always tried to avoid, if at all possible.

In closing, I respectfully disagree that ML's can't / will not work well in a live acoustic environment, without excessive acoustic treatment, based on 8 years of personal experience to the contrary.

GG

Gordon,

I will contact you at your convenience...

I do think I need atleast 4 things in my room. 2 MiniTraps (or Mondo?) behind the panels and 2 Microtraps along the side walls for first reflections. Other than this, I should be ok....

I don't think those large cylindrical insulation packages would fit well in the corners... though I wonder if I can find a bass trap similar but more aesthetically pleasing.

I can probably get heavier drapes, but I question how well it would work considering it is much thinner than the towel I use now.

So I think:
2 MiniTraps
2 MicroTraps

.... to start.

 

[Joey_V]

Joey, it seems to me that you are acknowledging the limitations of stats, and then complaining about limitations that are precisely what you acknowledged. Maybe as a start you need to spend some time alone in one position in a nice chair, listening to music, and forget the analysis. Just enjoy the music ! Or has Joeyitis settled in ?

Maybe Joeyitis has settled in?

Too early though... I don't want to do a major speaker overhaul just yet. We shall see...

It's a fun time though, as always!!

 

[kwr]

Hi Joey,

I renew my previous offer to assist you with your room. My listening rooms, over the past 8 years, have had mucho glass as the wall surface that interacts with the back wave.....



In closing, I respectfully disagree that ML's can't / will not work well in a live acoustic environment, without excessive acoustic treatment, based on 8 years of personal experience to the contrary.

GG

Agree - I would never pretend that our backroom ML system is an optimal setup but we do achieve an extraordinary sound in a nightmare room. I have tried conventional speakers just to see with poor results. This is the view from my posse at the island bench late this afternoon (usual Friday afternoon chaos) The performers float about the far end of the sofas. High volume is no good as the room goes wild but pretty effective up to about 85 - 90 dB. The sweet spot is on the opposite side of the bench in the middle but there is a good image along the entire working area of the bench (3.2m). The speakers are 3.2m between the outside edges and 6m off the front wall and 1.4m from the side walls. We sit 6m from the speakers with a kitchen and service cell behind us.

Kevin