ML Production moving
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RichTeer
Well-known member
Very interesting... I wonder if the move will have a positive (i.e., downward to be more in line with those in the US) effect on ML's prices up here?
Jungle Jack
Well-known member
Hello,
While it is better that at least production of the higher level models will remain in North America, this really is a stunning turn of events. So much has been made of Martin Logan being associated with Kansas and the Heartland of America.
While the hope and expectation when ShoreView purchased ML was that they would be a silent owner giving ML much autonomy, it seems this is not the case.
First, the Design Series brings Chinese Production. Next the Panel size, design and footprint of all ESL Speakers sans the CLX becomes much smaller.
I realize that the Xstat produces more sound with less surface area, but the reduction in the size of the Panels is noteworthy in the current generation.
Another indicator is the price of the Prodigy is often higher than that of the Summit. In addition, Ascent i's are holding strong at 2K which is more than the Vista usually sells used for.
Don't get me wrong, I own Vantages, Stage, Vista, and a Depth. And I really enjoy my system. It is just with my brother using dual Ascent i's with a Theater i and Descent i, it is always startling to me how much larger the Panel and cabinet of the Ascent are than my Vantage and Vista's.
Cheers,
ML
While it is better that at least production of the higher level models will remain in North America, this really is a stunning turn of events. So much has been made of Martin Logan being associated with Kansas and the Heartland of America.
While the hope and expectation when ShoreView purchased ML was that they would be a silent owner giving ML much autonomy, it seems this is not the case.
First, the Design Series brings Chinese Production. Next the Panel size, design and footprint of all ESL Speakers sans the CLX becomes much smaller.
I realize that the Xstat produces more sound with less surface area, but the reduction in the size of the Panels is noteworthy in the current generation.
Another indicator is the price of the Prodigy is often higher than that of the Summit. In addition, Ascent i's are holding strong at 2K which is more than the Vista usually sells used for.
Don't get me wrong, I own Vantages, Stage, Vista, and a Depth. And I really enjoy my system. It is just with my brother using dual Ascent i's with a Theater i and Descent i, it is always startling to me how much larger the Panel and cabinet of the Ascent are than my Vantage and Vista's.
Cheers,
ML
They only employ 50 people in Kansas?? That seems really low. And reducing that by 12, with replacements in Canada, is unlikely to have any significant effect. Even if you assume Canada is cheaper by ~$20-40k/employee/year, that is a cost reduction of only $240-480,000 per year. Plus, there is the added complexity of managing a facility in Kansas, Canada and China for a small company
Doesn't make a ton of sense but I hope they know what they are doing...
BTW, anyone know what their annual revenue is?
Jungle Jack
Well-known member
Hello,
Judging by the city in Canada they are moving production to, I would guess it is the Paradigm (also owned by ShoreView) Plant where the ESL's will now be built.
Cheers,
ML
Judging by the city in Canada they are moving production to, I would guess it is the Paradigm (also owned by ShoreView) Plant where the ESL's will now be built.
Cheers,
ML
"MartinLogan’s sales during the past six months are up 25 percent from the comparable six months a year earlier..."
Wow! Sure sounds like a dire situation in need of a quick fix...
This is sad. I sincerely hope this is not the beginning of the end...
Wow! Sure sounds like a dire situation in need of a quick fix...
This is sad. I sincerely hope this is not the beginning of the end...
This certainly looks to me like the beginning of the end to ML as we know it. Looks like they are pushing to mass produce higher numbers of cheaper speakers. At the old ML facility, there was a lot of skill and art that went into making these speakers, as we witnessed when we toured the facility. I fully expect to see a huge quality drop in the product when they make this transition.
Also, it looks like they are fudging the job loss numbers somehow. I recall more than a dozen people being involved in speaker production when we toured the facility. I don't know, but either way I can't believe that this spells good news for the future of the brand.
Also, it looks like they are fudging the job loss numbers somehow. I recall more than a dozen people being involved in speaker production when we toured the facility. I don't know, but either way I can't believe that this spells good news for the future of the brand.
RichTeer
Well-known member
Why would that be the case? I'm pretty sure that the Canadian speaker-building artisans are just as skilled as their cousins in Kansas...
D
Double D
Guest
I don't see this as being as big a negative as it could have been.. as least (as has been pointed out) the jobs are NOT moving overseas.
If indeed the work is coming to the Paradigm facility (also a ShoreView entity, as pointed out) they will be taking advantage of a first rate production facility that churns out some really excellent cabinet work on a CONSISTENT basis. The Paradigm Signature series is beautiful stuff.
While I'm skeptical that some would consider Canada "cheaper" by $20k-40K a year.. you obviously are out of touch with what the cost of living is like up here in the frigid north.. and trust me .. while our banking system is stable and such.. housing costs are through the roof.. so, I would hardly consider it cheaper here..
Consider that new 650sq.foot condos in Metro Toronto sell for just around $350k and you have something to think about.
Personally.. with using the Paradigm facility we could see some really interesting stuff coming from ML in terms of finish options and such.
If indeed the work is coming to the Paradigm facility (also a ShoreView entity, as pointed out) they will be taking advantage of a first rate production facility that churns out some really excellent cabinet work on a CONSISTENT basis. The Paradigm Signature series is beautiful stuff.
While I'm skeptical that some would consider Canada "cheaper" by $20k-40K a year.. you obviously are out of touch with what the cost of living is like up here in the frigid north.. and trust me .. while our banking system is stable and such.. housing costs are through the roof.. so, I would hardly consider it cheaper here..
Consider that new 650sq.foot condos in Metro Toronto sell for just around $350k and you have something to think about.
Personally.. with using the Paradigm facility we could see some really interesting stuff coming from ML in terms of finish options and such.
Audioseduction
Well-known member
It says ML will retain quality control in Lawrence but how can you really provide QC if production is in another country?
More American jobs being lost! Not a stab at the Kanadeens but YOU CANT REPLACE YEARS OF LEARNED ON THE JOB EXPERIENCE
I for see El cheapo 7.1 soon and eventually ML will be a non player in High end. Its a dying breed .
I for see El cheapo 7.1 soon and eventually ML will be a non player in High end. Its a dying breed .
Gordon
Well-known member
I wonder if I should buy the CLX now and force them into my room?
If they are going to be made in the Paradigm factory, cabinetry should be stellar. I had a pair of P-dimes Signature S8 and the fit and finish was superb. Still, I'd prefer they remain in the States, no offense to our friends in the north. Twelve jobs is twelve families not having to wonder about a check every two weeks.
Gordon
If they are going to be made in the Paradigm factory, cabinetry should be stellar. I had a pair of P-dimes Signature S8 and the fit and finish was superb. Still, I'd prefer they remain in the States, no offense to our friends in the north. Twelve jobs is twelve families not having to wonder about a check every two weeks.
Gordon
shakham
Well-known member
Mixed feelings. Obviously this was a consolidation move by Shoreview.
Canada also makes great speakers, so I'm not too concerned about quality, nor perception.
China is getting better, but I'm not really interested in paying a premium for China made stuff. Sunfire went that route as well.
Losing US jobs is not a good thing...that's the worse in all of this.
Canada also makes great speakers, so I'm not too concerned about quality, nor perception.
China is getting better, but I'm not really interested in paying a premium for China made stuff. Sunfire went that route as well.
Losing US jobs is not a good thing...that's the worse in all of this.
DrJRapp
Well-known member
Anyone who did not see that coming when ShoreView bought out ML had to have blindfolds on. At least they still will be made by a quality based factory. I expect that we will soon see components, namely drivers, manufactured in china find their way into the product line.
sleepysurf
Well-known member
Bummer! No more visits to Lawrence, KS.
Who knew the new Motion series really meant "WE are moving"
Kinda makes their recent marketing campaign as "The Great American Speaker Company... Handcrafted Electrostatic Speakers From the Heartland" a joke! http://www.martinlogan.com/
At least "The Great North American Speaker Company..." still gives Shoreview the option of shifting production to Mexico! (although some would say that's Central America).
Who knew the new Motion series really meant "WE are moving"
Kinda makes their recent marketing campaign as "The Great American Speaker Company... Handcrafted Electrostatic Speakers From the Heartland" a joke! http://www.martinlogan.com/
At least "The Great North American Speaker Company..." still gives Shoreview the option of shifting production to Mexico! (although some would say that's Central America).
Bernard
Well-known member
OTOH Mississauga is an easy 5 hr drive for me.Bummer! No more visits to Lawrence, KS.
Nope, Mexico is still North America.
mcmd
Well-known member
This is what ShoreView has to say about the ML acquisition:
http://www.shoreviewindustries.com/portfolio/port8.htm
http://www.shoreviewindustries.com/portfolio/port8.htm
mcmd
Well-known member
"MartinLogan’s sales during the past six months are up 25 percent from the comparable six months a year earlier..."
Wow! Sure sounds like a dire situation in need of a quick fix...
This is sad. I sincerely hope this is not the beginning of the end...
Regrettably, increased sales does not necessarily translate into increased profit. In fact, in many cases, the opposite results.
Agreed Alan, but one must 'wait and see' for the possibility exists that things could actually be better...............we are a pretty critical bunch so if quality slips it will be on the radar quickly around here !
No doubt they are highly skilled in manufacturing traditional speakers. But ESL's are a different breed. When we toured the factory, they made a point of explaining how difficult it was to learn the process for stretching the mylar membrane over the panels, and how their best folks had ten or more years experience doing it. According to them, as I recall, it took three to five years for someone to truly master it. More of an art than a science.
Skill is acquired through experience with a particular process, especially when that process is almost completely done by hand. I'm sure the Canadians will be able to master it, in about three years or so. Until then, I'm a little concerned about the quality of the speakers. A few poor batches could seriously damage the reputation of the brand.
Also, consider that these speakers we love so much have been manufactured with a lot of hands-on attention, by virtually the same small group of people in Lawrence for the last thirty years or so. To think that they will retain their same qualities after having production completely moved to another factory in another country, is to have your head in the sand. Perhaps they will end up much better for the change. Perhaps much worse. But they will be very different than the ML speakers that we have grown to love. And the track record for companies like Shoreview making these changes to small home-grown companies that they buy is not necessarily the best. I am pessimistic for the brand's future.
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