ML newbie in sudden hot water...

[The Goal is Soul]

I recently purchased two HT and speakers in 7 other rooms for a new home; all speakers are ML. Good news - my install is set for July 1-3 ... Bad news - my AV dealer called today and advised that my Krell amp and processor for the primary HT (w/ Vantages and sub) is no longer available...

The dealer (a regional chain) is suggesting the relatively new Pioneer Elite SC-09TX Receiver w/ an ICEpower analog class-D amp (200 w x 7) – retail about $7K.

The dealer claims that the Pioneer (which they will discount 30%) is a great product, and Pioneer makes some pretty bold representations. I grew up believing in separates, owning a Lexicon amp many moons ago. I am at a loss. I concur that the visual side of the Pioneer is more than adequate for my needs. I simply am uncertain if the audio functionality of the B & O amps, "when combined with Pioneer's sound tuning technologies and super DSP room tuning results in a revolutionary new level of amplification typically found only in professional studios...delivering precise sonic reproduction that goes beyond traditional audio capacity" is real or hype.

After years of listening to Madison Ave; I'm not moved. And, I know that the magic words for ML are "lots of clean current".

A problem is that I live in a small state (Delaware) and only 1 dealer provides ML within 2 hrs of my home. I can not effectively engage in an A/B comparison between the Pioneer and high quality separates (i.e. Lexicon, Sunfire, Parasound, etc.)

I visited the dealer; the Pioneer sounds great; but I don't know what I may be missing. This is my wife's dream home and my dream home theater. I don't want to short change myself...

All advice appreciated,

BB

The Goal is Soul

 

[daniel]

Is it a joke?

You're looking for Krell and the dealing want to set you up with Pioneer.

It's like if you went to a car dealer for a Ferrari and the dealer would try to sell you a Toyota Yaris. ( I have a Yaris, a good car, but it ain't a Ferrari).

My advice: go somewhere else ( but keep the ML).

 

[JonFo]

I recently purchased two HT and speakers in 7 other rooms for a new home; all speakers are ML. ...

Which models?

If any of them are the big Electrostats, then that receiver will not do them justice.


There are several nice preamps out there these days for under $2,600 that would take care of the video and multi-zone needs. Here are some suggestions to look at:

• Integra RDC 9.8 ($1,600)
• Onkyo PR-SC885P ($1,800)
• Marantz AV8003 ($2,599.99)

Couple one of those with a nice Sunfire TGA series amp, and you are set.

 

[DrJRapp]

... Bad news - my AV dealer called today and advised that my Krell amp and processor for the primary HT (w/ Vantages and sub) is no longer available...

The dealer (a regional chain) is suggesting the relatively new Pioneer Elite SC-09TX Receiver w/ an ICEpower analog class-D amp (200 w x 7) – retail about $7K.

Sounds like Tweeter. They are a Pioneer and ML dealer and during their recent acqisition by an Equity firm they lost their Krell franchise. If this is the case his recommendations are based on availabilty and profit, not on your best intrests. You probably already sense that. I would act accordingly, even if you have to travel a bit to Jersey, PA or Maryland to find a place to listen. You'll be listening to your theater setup for a long time.

 

[twich54]

if it is/was Tweeter there in lies mistake #1, but don't fret it's easily corrected..... drive a to the Northern End of your State and visit Overture (on rte 202 just north of Wilm), see Damien or Beau or even the owner Terry.

They even have a second store now I believe in lewes ?? Erik was there, hopefully he will chime in with its location.

 

[eknuds01]

Yep. Their sister store is in Lewes, DE - near Dewey Beach.

::takes out business cards::

Wes Short - general manager (302-645-1940) or ask for Tim Short.

Erik

 

[DTB300]

A problem is that I live in a small state (Delaware) and only 1 dealer provides ML within 2 hrs of my home. I can not effectively engage in an A/B comparison between the Pioneer and high quality separates (i.e. Lexicon, Sunfire, Parasound, etc.)

I was just in Dover this weekend at the college.

Drive the 2 hours to Overture Audio and get the real answers you are looking for - they are great people to deal with. The Rotel, Parasound, Sunfire seperates will be a far better choice than the Pioneer IMO - if sound quality is a major concern of yours.

 

[The Goal is Soul]

First; a great thanks! And as a follow up...

Yes, it is Tweeter (I was concerned that I not mention AD's of products, but now that I can, I'll be more specific...) and this was the Wilmington store.

I feel "gamed" to some degree. Then again, after spending $50k on A/V for our beach house, the salesperson is doing just that; it's my role to vet his proposals. Also my job to distinguish a salesperson from a consultant.

I will consider everyone's collective advice. One reality check; my wife is begining to notice my expenditures so I am trying to stay under $5-$7K for all power and processors for the house.

(1) I will visit Overture and other stores that carry ML with amps - any suggestions for Philly or south Jersey?

(2) I have on hold a lesser Pioneer Elite driving a second HT and a several rooms (collectively, mostly Tickets but also a pair of Passages). How great is the varience in sound is there with wall mounted ML's using a good receiver vs a preamp/amp/processor?

Anyway, I'll get some second opinions and also put my ears to the test.

Thank you all, so much, for your thoughtful responses. Now that it's not
2:00 am, I can process this much better. The loss of the Krell is actually good news; I can consider new options!

BB

The Goal is Soul

 

[The Goal is Soul]

Amish country..!

My beach home is in Rehoboth; only 10 minutes from Lewes. Overture's foot prints in Wilmington and Lewes are each only 1 hr from Dover. I didn't even know Overture existed. I do have a good excuse; living in Amish country myself (west of Dover) it is a known fact that Slower Lower Delaware folks are simply not very sophisticated.

In fact, how many horses will I need to run on the treadmill to power up the sunfire amps?

BB

The Goal is Soul

 

[ckoffend]

You would be crazy to settle for the Pioneer stuff, especially more so that it is ice based amplification. I tried several Digital amps (not anything by Pioneer) and they cannot compare, even close, to traditional based amplification, and are light years behind the Krell equipment. Find another Krell dealers and buy from them or even go used. If you want a HTS 7.1 brand new with full warranty pre/pro contact Larry at Paragon in Ann Harbor Michigan. He can likely get you one for about $3,000 vs. the $8,500 list price. If you need the S1000 or higher, then you will pay a lot more.

DON'T GET STUCK WITH THE PIONEER STUFF.

 

[twich54]

Yes, it is Tweeter (I was concerned that I not mention AD's of products, but now that I can, I'll be more specific...) and this was the Wilmington store.

One of the worst Tweeter stores in existence, they have NO CLUE as to the proper set up for Logans. FYI, Overture is only a mile and half closer to Wilmington on rte 202.

1) I will visit Overture and other stores that carry ML with amps - any suggestions for Philly or south Jersey?

When it comes to Martin Logan, Overture is THE shop in the Tri-State area, I'm not trying to blow smoke up your butt, merely the facts. I've known and dealt with Terry for twenty years. With respect to amplification they offer affordable solutions in Rotel, Sunfire (many members here love the synergy of these units with their Logans) as well as higher end from Classe', ARC, CJ, etc.

 

[Thai]

FYI...here is the Pioneer AVR: http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/P...t/AV-Receivers/EliteReceivers/ci.SC-09TX.Kuro

IMHO, i would go with separates if you're spending that much $$$$$.

 

[Nielsen]

I always gets a bit concerned when someone recommends class D amps with electrostatics, but maybe I have no reason for that.......
Would just recommend Bryston amps.....

 

[eknuds01]

One of the worst Tweeter stores in existence, they have NO CLUE as to the proper set up for Logans. FYI, Overture is only a mile and half closer to Wilmington on rte 202.



When it comes to Martin Logan, Overture is THE shop in the Tri-State area, I'm not trying to blow smoke up your butt, merely the facts. I've known and dealt with Terry for twenty years. With respect to amplification they offer affordable solutions in Rotel, Sunfire (many members here love the synergy of these units with their Logans) as well as higher end from Classe', ARC, CJ, etc.

I believe Overture is the #1 seller of ML gear on the East Coast (maybe even the whole US).

Erik

 

[Burke]

I ran my ML HT, Vistas and the Summits for L/R and 4 scripts for surround on a Pioneer Elite VSX-74 for about 9 months. The sound was very good but not great. I then purchased a Sunfire Symphonic Reference amplifier for the L/R big improvement, 6 months after that I upgraded amps again to the Sanders ESL stereo amps and the the ESL mono blocks. all using the Pioneer Elite as the pre. Jan of this year I changed the Pioneer for an Integra DTC-9.8. The Integra has more HDMI switching and the new codecs, but it does not have better sound or setup than the Pioneer had.

I would not be afraid of the lesser Pioneer Elite as the pre/pro but I would not recommend it as an amplifier (I really like the Sanders but they are outside of you desired budget) I do recommend the Sunfires. excellent price performance ratio.

--burke

 

[Jungle Jack]

Hello,
While not a good sale tactic, the SC-09TX is a truly special piece of gear. Comparisons to Pioneer's current lineup are null and void. Between the Ice Power amplification and the sampling rate converter, this is not an ordinary receiver. The video processing is excellent as well. This is flagship Elite last seen with the VSX-49/59 txi series.
That being said, I am not sold on digital amplification as well. I listened to the Bel Canto amps ,which use these modules, and it was not my cup of tea.
I use the Integra 9.8 to great effect with Parasound amplification to my Vantage/Cinema i/Aerius i system.
Cheers,
Mark

 

[DrJRapp]

I always gets a bit concerned when someone recommends class D amps with electrostatics, but maybe I have no reason for that.......
Would just recommend Bryston amps.....

I've listened to my Summits powered by a Rotel 1077 and a Newforce Ref 9 v2 both of which are class D. Both have delivered excellent, bordering on superb results...just not in the same league as Krell. The Rotel is an ICE module device. I've been pleased with Mosaics powered by a Panasonic XR25. I've heard Vistas powered by the 09TX at my local Sound Advice (Tweeters) and it sounded excellent, but a bit on the bright side and lacking low end umph.

The amps powering the Summit woofers and Vantage low freq driver are ice by the way.

 

[The Goal is Soul]

Thanks!!!; I visited Overture and...

What a difference!

Tim and his team members in Lewes really helped me out. Instead of telling me what to buy, they took several hrs and demonstrated equiptment. Most of the amp focus was Rotel. I am two weeks away from moving into the home and, when I do, I'll update with an overview of the system, jpg's of the ML's and an initial review.

Thank you all so much, for your very kind and considerate suggestions. They have made a difference!

BB

The Goal is Soul

 

[PeterWhite]

I will consider everyone's collective advice.

My advice is to not worry about differences in sound quality between amplifiers with good specifications. The consensus among knowledgeable engineers in the business seems to be that any differences are simply not audible to humans. Very slight differences in sound levels can make one component appear to sound better than another. To do a proper comparison, sound levels must be matched to within .1db, which can't be done by ear, but only with a good meter. So when you waltz into a high-fi shop and they demo two amps, you're likely to prefer the one that's just a tiny bit louder; not enough louder for the different in loudness to be apparent, but enough to make the music sound a bit more clear, the imaging to be a bit better, etc.

In properly controlled double blinded testing, people aren't able to tell the difference between good quality amps. So why spend huge sums of money on esoteric electronics when you could be spending it on CDs?

See the various articles here for all the fascinating details. http://theaudiocritic.com

 

[Jungle Jack]

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