ML newbie in sudden hot water...

[DrJRapp]

I must say I'm surprised at the nastiness of this group. You're much like religious fanatics, appalled that anyone should question the group dogma. Too bad.

Have you ever heard the expression...when in Rome, do as the Roman's do?

Most people who join us here enter properly...they knock on the door by introducing themselves in the new members thread and tell all of us a bit about themselves and their systems. They just don't jump into any thread and start to try to throw their weight around in the manner that it appears you have. That is largely why you are being treated as you are.

This is a club made up of owners and appreciators of Martin Logan speakers...not an open forum for just anyone to expose their personal philosophies. Most of the members here are highly knowledgable in the whys and wherefores of audio and we all have come to an appreciation of the fact that our audio world is not black and white but consists of infinte shades of grey, an appreciation you have apparently yet to reach. That isn't intended to be an insult, just an observation.

We all respect each other and our differences here...but that respect has been earned over time. It has been earned by giving long term existing members the respect that they deserve.

 

[David Matz]

I must say I'm surprised at the nastiness of this group. You're much like religious fanatics, appalled that anyone should question the group dogma. Too bad.

Peter,

I am not sure I understand. I believe friendly debate and multiple opinions are great. A lot of fresh, great ideas can come from people looking at things from different points of view. Many people here disagree about various aspects of audio, it's just communicated in a much smoother way.

You said you wanted to be engaged on your ideas. My post was trying to do that. You made a claim without any substantiation, and I asked for proof. You took offense and resorted to personal attacks, and insulted the entire group of members. I imagine no one is going to be buying you a beer at the National or Regional club meet.

 

[Gordon Gray]

Regarding PW's latest post, I now know I've found Jesus (aka music) and the world really is flat.

Tom?

GG

 

[Rich]

My advice is to not worry about differences in sound quality between amplifiers with good specifications.

. . .

In properly controlled double blinded testing, people aren't able to tell the difference between good quality amps.

If you want to know why you have received a somewhat cold reception, look at the way you entered this forum. You jump into a thread and your first post is "don't worry about the differences in sound quality between good amplifiers because there isn't any." And then you start spouting off about double blind testing and so on. If you were a regular, this would have been tolerated and debated in a (somewhat) respectful manner. But jumping in with that attitude with no introduction whatsoever, you tend to get people's feathers ruffled.

So, now you have given us some background and we see . . . you have never actually performed double blind tests with amplifiers. You have the gall to tell someone that there is no difference between quality amplifiers, not because you have any experience with this, but because you read what some dumba$$ engineer wrote?

You go on to say that you owned a pair of box speakers that were . . . how old? . . . 20 or 30 years? . . . and you compared them to ML speakers and the differences were "just a tad more detail, and the bass was a hair better" and better vocals. This alone strains incredulity for anyone experienced with ML speakers. And you didn't buy those speakers, but later picked up a pair of Vistas without even auditioning them? Yours does not exactly appear to be the voice of a seasoned audiophile.

Do you have any understanding of the widely swinging impedances of electrostatic speakers and the load this places on an amplifier? Do you understand why some amplifiers are capable of dealing with this load better than others? Do you have any idea of the various amp circuit topologies and the effects that each can have on the sound? Do you understand what it means when an amp designer states that they "voiced" their amp a certain way? Do you have any idea how ridiculous it sounds to most members of this forum when you say that all quality amps sound the same?

You're much like religious fanatics, appalled that anyone should question the group dogma.

No, we are a community of enthusiasts dedicated to high-end audio and particularly fond of Martin Logan speakers. We have some expectation that newbies to our forum will introduce themselves, give a little background, and read a little of the forum and learn about Martin Logan speakers before jumping in and giving advice. We are certainly opinionated and strongly debate various topics on a regular basis. We don't require that you follow the "group dogma" but we do expect that you have a clue what you are talking about before you start spouting off.

For the record, I have done double blind testing of high quality amplifiers and preamplifiers, and yes, I was able to tell a difference. For the life of me, I can't imagine why you didn't just buy a Bose lifestyle system. They are cheaper than the Vistas, and they have awesome specs!

 

[kwr]

I've never done a proper double blind test comparing amps.......


I must say I'm surprised at the nastiness of this group. You're much like religious fanatics, appalled that anyone should question the group dogma. Too bad.

I have done the blind testing with a meter for assesing dB. Krell KSA 150, Krell FPB 200cx?, Classe 400, Plinius SA102 as stereo and monoblocs via Monolith III. Clear winner in terms of musical reality was the Plinius. Assembled crowd included a saxophonist, performance degree in piano, piano played to high level, trumpet player all with much listening to live music.

Unleashed dogma is a dangerous thing . Even more dangerous are those suffering the burden of little knowledge and the fervour with which they express that burden. Experience suggests to me that there is not as big difference between well executed amplifiers as there is between speakers but there is a significant difference.

Do not even begin to talk about placebo, controlled trials, double blind testing, the validity of results , power of the test, levels of statistical significance. I can next to guarantee (unless you have a PhD in epidemiology) that there are people here who will have a more sophisticated response than your statistical take on audio.

Get out and listen and leave your bias at home.

Kevin

 

[Gordon Gray]

Kevin,

An eloquent and accurate summary of PW and folks of similar ilk.

I wonder if he gets it.

GG

 

[FatJ]

Y'all be nice to PW... It just isn't right to pick on the deaf and mentally challenged

 

[ScottGardner]

My advice... The consensus among knowledgeable engineers [is that] differences are simply not audible...

Deaf engineers would all agree. Electrical engineers may agree. Sound and recording engineers would definitely NOT agree. When your livelihood is on the line it is these differences that separate the working from the unemployed.

To do a proper comparison, sound levels must be matched to within .1db, which can't be done by ear, but only with a good meter. So when you waltz into a high-fi shop and they demo two amps, you're likely to prefer the one that's just a tiny bit louder; not enough louder for the different in loudness to be apparent, but enough to make the music sound a bit more clear, the imaging to be a bit better, etc.

Audition a Sunfire. Some (if not all) of them have two sets of outputs: current (said to be tube like) or voltage (standard solid state). There is a personality to each of these outputs. The mag you recommend says it can't be there but I can hear it. Try it yourself. If you can't hear the differences consider yourself lucky. Buy what sounds good to you. However, just because you or a thousand others like you can’t hear it doesn’t mean I can’t.

In properly controlled double blinded testing, people aren't able to tell the difference between good quality amps.

What does properly controlled mean? What people? What amps? What speakers? What preamps? What source material? What acoustics. What beverages are being served?

So why spend huge sums of money on esoteric electronics when you could be spending it on CDs?

You probably feel the same way about Art. Why spend huge sums of money on anything? Because it’s only money, it’s a tool to get the things that bring enjoyment to your life. Why do you care how I spend my money?

the huge differences I thought I had heard when I first set up the MLs were either gone or now only very subtle.

Maybe you should get the specs on your ears (have a check-up). They have been known to fade over time.

I must say I'm surprised at the nastiness of this group. You're much like religious fanatics, appalled that anyone should question the group dogma. Too bad.

You came in here spouting your philosophy and waving your book(mag). Your behavior is similar to a missionary roaming around trying to convert others to their way of thinking. This seems more religiously fanatic to me.


If you need acknowledgement that everyone hears what you hear (or don't hear), you won’t find it here. So there...

 

[ScottGardner]

PeterWhite,

Here are a few more things to ponder:

Does everything taste the same to everyone?
Does everything look the same to everyone?
Does everything smell the same to everyone?

What tools would you use to qualify these senses?

Do you really think hearing can be qualified in a way that applies to everyone? If so go ahead and prove it... if you can.

Senses by their very nature are subjective and hearing is no different.

Someone with exceptional hearing trying to describe what they hear to you would be like you trying to describe chartreuse to a blind person. Try that.

 

[tsmooth]

Audition a Sunfire. Some (if not all) of them have two sets of outputs: current (said to be tube like) or voltage (standard solid state). There is a personality to each of these outputs.

Yes, I have done the same thing (I own Sunfire) and the current/voltage sources sound completely different. The beauty of this test is that you have no bias! You are using the same amp; therefore money/interconnects/dbs, etc. don't get in the way of analyzing the piece. If you can’t differentiate between the softness of the current source or the signature low end of the voltage source then I don’t know what to say.

 

[IWalker]

PW, I agree with a lot of what you say, and am sorry you got jumped on...but I'm a big fan of putting things out there posed as my opinion instead of fact...and it's generally received (at least here) a lot more openly. So, just a recommendation.

My personal belief is that the audiophile marketplace is a true luxury market...)defined by the amount spent on advertising vs materials). Also, the dealer agreements(almost all dealers receive products at 50% of retail, so then mark up items 100% for sale) assuring that good are priced far above the margin(minus advertising) seen in normal consumer markets. The keys to long-term existence in this kind of market are - differentiation and quality. So, at any given price point you will generally have a number of high quality pieces, that while not any different in overall quality do have some level of differentiation. For Amps: Tube vs Solid state, varying output impedences, circuit design...all of these will slighly modify the characterists of the amplifed sound. (tube introduces higher levels of even order non-linear distortion that often sounds "warmer" etc.) So, as long as an amp is of high enough quality to run your speakers, then it comes down to finding what set of tradeoffs you most prefer the sound of. Ones that are appealing to a wide range of people often are marked up further...making them more expensive...thus lending some credence to the idea that more expensive components are often better. (because who, rationally, would spend more for a worse component) I personally downgraded from a class A amp to a Crown pro-amp. I can definitely tell differences in the sound (the class A definitely sounded less harsh on pretty much everything...but was much less controlled in the bass...and yes, these were double blind tests), so there were advantages to each, and for the price, the pro-amp was the choice for me.

I apologize for my wall of text.

What I would say regarding MOST recievers (though potentially a $7k doesn't suffer from this) is that you 1. are tying your pre and amp together, meaning you have to upgrade both when you want to upgrade one. This makes buying recievers a much more expensive proposition in the long-term...especially when it comes to keeping the pre updated with the most recent technology. 2. often try to cram a lot into a relatively small chassis without adequate heat sinking or airflow (fans, which add noise)...causing heat issues when driven at high levels...and those heat issues can affect both the pre and the amp. 3. rarely have power supplies able to deal with the low impedence issues that logans tend to have at high frequencies. 4. Can have noise issues if the circuits for the pre and the amp portions are drawing off the same power supply.

So, while a reciever of that caliber would certainly work, I would favor seperates for the flexibility and limitation of the issues listed above.

 

[DTB300]

PW sounds just like most of the folks over at Homely Theatrical Crack in terms of HTR's being the holy grails, seperate components are for boosting the Audiophile Ego and not for sound quality, SPL levels over sound quality for bass, and on and on and on. In fact I would not be surprised if they were a regular over there.

 

[IWalker]

No need to get personal. Being dismissive of either viewpoint isn't constructive. For differing budgets and preferences (music type, listening levels, etc.) there will be different ideal results. Low level jazz listening and high volume rock or home theater are rarely served best by the same setup.

I certainly agree that the response that started this was tangential to the OP's question, so was inappropriate in placement as well as tone...but I don't think it deserves the sort of vitriol it's received. At best it's a misunderstanding and at worst he's a troll...neither of which warrant such a reaction (hence the idea "don't feed the trolls").

 

[David Matz]

No need to get personal. Being dismissive of either viewpoint isn't constructive. For differing budgets and preferences (music type, listening levels, etc.) there will be different ideal results. Low level jazz listening and high volume rock or home theater are rarely served best by the same setup.

I certainly agree that the response that started this was tangential to the OP's question, so was inappropriate in placement as well as tone...but I don't think it deserves the sort of vitriol it's received. At best it's a misunderstanding and at worst he's a troll...neither of which warrant such a reaction (hence the idea "don't feed the trolls").

IWalker,

I agree with you about not getting personal and sticking to substance, but when I tried to engage PW on his ideas, he was the one who was hurling insults.

 

[ScottGardner]

The more I compared them, the more I realized that while the MLs were better, they would do next to nothing to increase my enjoyment of the music.

I agree that too much analysis and critical listening can lead to "AUDIO HELL". ML’s facilitate and even encourage this because they are so revealing.

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/viewpoint/0601/audiohell.htm

The above site has an alternate approach to auditioning components. Instead of using the same set of CD’s your familiar with (COMPARISON BY REFERENCE), use an ever changing list (COMPARISON BY CONTRAST). The idea is that too much focus on a small set creates boredom and frustration. While a larger set ultimately is more enjoyable and leads to a more accurate system.

I have found that I still need my (COMPARISON BY REFERENCE) as a sanity check but selecting a few dozen ever changing CDs to add to the mix adds immensely to enjoyment. It becomes not only an exploration of the differences between components but also a (re)discovery of music I forgot I had.

YMMV.