Just wanting to express my viewpoint

[markad1776]

I agree, I don't think there is a "lack of enthusiasm for ML". The only complaint I see is how they increased price 2x in around a year or so. We still have a good number of members on here buying new speakers at the new high prices. To me that show enthusiasm for the brand.

I am looking at the Motion 60XTi and the 40i. I like both, but prefer the 60.
The 60s sound fine just as is, without a subwoofer, but the 40i's sounded amazing with a subwoofer, in fact it seemed like the speakers themselves disappeared into the room. Pretty cool.
But my problem is my room height. I have drop ceilings, about 6.5 ft high.
The 4 ft tall 60XTi may work okay in the room, but it is the dispersion of the tweeters on both models that is questionable. The 60XTi tweeter dispersion is 30 degrees and the 40i's dispersion is a huge 80 degrees. I am trying to determine if I will have some ceiling bounce issues with either speaker. From my calculations the 40i's may be the worst match for the room because at least the taller towers' dispersion is much less, albeit the height of the speaker itself is about 6" taller than the 40's.
Advice?

 

[Robert D]

Big Dog, as a 68 year old retiree I'm right there with 'ya !! hell, even my whisky and cigar prices are through the roof !!

A trip to Wendys for 3 of us was near $50 with tax.

 

[Rich]

In my opinion, ML’s have increased in price too much for what you get. For the price of one of their subs, you could get two better-performing subs from Rythmik, PSA, or similar. And there are plenty of speaker options that are just as good for half the price. I seriously doubt the Renaissance 15A’s sound much better than my Summits, and they’re almost three times the original price of the Summits. It’s ridiculous. I saw this coming when they sold out, and was castigated by Jeff Dorgay for suggesting it, but still sad to see it happen. I don’t expect I’ll ever buy another ML. My Summits should last me for awhile. And my newly-refurbished KLH Model Nine’s should easily last me the rest of my life.

 

[Robert D]

In my opinion, ML’s have increased in price too much for what you get. For the price of one of their subs, you could get two better-performing subs from Rythmik, PSA, or similar. And there are plenty of speaker options that are just as good for half the price. I seriously doubt the Renaissance 15A’s sound much better than my Summits, and they’re almost three times the original price of the Summits. It’s ridiculous. I saw this coming when they sold out, and was castigated by Jeff Dorgay for suggesting it, but still sad to see it happen. I don’t expect I’ll ever buy another ML. My Summits should last me for awhile. And my newly-refurbished KLH Model Nine’s should easily last me the rest of my life.

Just 2 or 3 years ago the prices were at a point where I felt they were still within reason, but the recent price hikes have taken them into the unreasonable realm for me.
Prices are crazy on a lot of things now, like my Aragon amp. Sometimes when I see prices I have to pinch myself to see if I'm dreaming. Just crazy.
I'm glad I have the equipment I have now and just pray it doesn't break down.
Those PSA subs look amazing. He builds them here in Ohio too. Does he have a small showroom?

 

[markad1776]

In my opinion, ML’s have increased in price too much for what you get. For the price of one of their subs, you could get two better-performing subs from Rythmik, PSA, or similar. And there are plenty of speaker options that are just as good for half the price. I seriously doubt the Renaissance 15A’s sound much better than my Summits, and they’re almost three times the original price of the Summits. It’s ridiculous. I saw this coming when they sold out, and was castigated by Jeff Dorgay for suggesting it, but still sad to see it happen. I don’t expect I’ll ever buy another ML. My Summits should last me for awhile. And my newly-refurbished KLH Model Nine’s should easily last me the rest of my life.

I noticed ML prices are bit high too. I am looking at a demo ML Motion 60xti for 35% off! But that size: 4 ft tall! And that tweeter is WAY up there, actually about 3/4 of it is above my ear level while seated. Still I thought they sounded great. Sometimes I think the bass sounded a bit flabby? But I could be wrong. Actually the Motion 40i WITH a subwoofer or two disappeared in the room. That was really cool! I found a pair of 40i on demo sale as well. I hate these decisions. My only concern is my low ceilings and the high dispersion of the tweeters, especially the 80 degree dispersion on the 40i. I can just guess that I will have to use some kind of acoustic treatment on the ceiling IF I get these, and maybe also for the 60xti. Your thoughts?
I demoed the KLH Model 5: Impressive. I thought I would hate the aluminum tweeter but the voicing isn't sharp at all, in fact it's a warm speaker.
On the other hand I heard the Sonus Faber Lumina 5. WOW. LOTS of upper treble info but NEVER harsh or fatiguing, just detailed and airy. But the midrange is Outstanding: clear, articulate, flat. Really impressive. Weird thing with this speaker: it pairs with a ton of amps. It actually has more in common with horn loaded/compression drivers than any other speaker, minus the horn sound of course. The sound is EFFORTLESS, it just comes out without hesitation, like you're sitting 5 or 10 rows from the stage at a concert...maybe not 5 rows...not sure really, but maybe about 15 rows, but still close. Pretty cool. The ML sound like you are sitting much, much further back from the stage: 20 plus rows if not more.

 

[Brad225]

Hey Rob, I missed the main amplifier that you were using with your Prodigy's... Aragon, outstanding!
Brings back many memories, going way back to my under-grad years in Chicago 93/95. There was another highend store I used to visit in Naperville, can't recall the name but they were top dealers for Meridian, Lexicon, B&W, NHT, and Aragon gear. My ever first experience with Aragon was in that very store, big Aragon amp with pre and Aragon Dac driving a pair of B&W Matrix 801's. It was true reference quality indeed!

The price range was way beyond anything I could afford at the time but later on I ended up getting the Krell and ML SL3's from the Sound Lab also located in Naperville. That was my go to store for ML & Krell, and later on CJ. They had a good line up of top end CJ tube gear at the time. I believe they've closed many years ago.

Is Aragon still made though and where? I thought it was one of those legendary brands that ceased production and closed up... I don't know.

Best, RJ

Hey Big Dog,
My SL3s were powered my Aragon 2004, 24K pre and their DAC I don't remember the model. I gave a friend the pre and DAC but still have the 2004.

 

[DanR]

Yes, speaking of pricing, things are going bonkers everywhere, not just in highend audio. Speaking of which, just around 2019/20 during covid lockdown, the very last pair of CLX's sold for 50grand AUD. Now the Ren15a's are priced at 50grand and above depending on the finish. The 13A's are around 32grand and the 11A's are around 15grand. The Classic 9's are about half that.

Gone are the days where you can work hard, save up a bit and afford the highend... no chance now Charlie!

There are certain deals that only a handful of dealers are willing to do, and they are the ones who will gain a loyal customer base, just like my primary ML dealer, great chap! Always willing to help out in any way.

Unfortunately, in this business scenario I'm not sure how these prices are structured... for now the Neolith's are a cool 160grand!
One brand of tube gear that I've been so familiar with since I was a teen, is Conrad johnson. I currently own four pieces of their top end gear but it's now considered vintage! It was probably a miracle that I could afford it about a decade ago but now forget it!

The starting price point of CJ gear in Aus is around 7grand, and that's the most entry level integrated control amplifier. The preamps start at 9grand and goes upto 40grand for the top of the line Art88. The power amps start at 16grand and go upto 80grand, ha! No worries mate, just write that cheque or swipe that platinum card shall we!

My days of must have upgrades are over, and I was fortunate enough to put together all this gear starting from scratch over again since 2004/05. It took that long up until 2018 to acquire the CLX's, so I'm done! The only thing I do now, apart from getting the BF210 just recently, is I upgrade or mod the existing tube gear. This involves a lot of skill and steady hands and lot of knowledge in power supply design in Class A topology. Once the mods are done then it takes time to arrive at an ideal balance of trouble free operation, in terms of thermal stability and performance, to reduce levels of distortion and keep power supplies under control without going into thermal overload.

It took around three years to get these mods done, which included original parts and certification from the main brand. Now, that these mods have been done, I can confirm that it was totally worth it, mainly because it's performance sometimes surpasses the latest gear which costs 10 times more! And for what... most probably a marginal improvement in the latest gear... no point.

My benchmark in percentage of overall performance improvement must be at 40% and above. Or at least thereabouts...say 35% minimum. If the new gear isn't going to provide me that extra 35 to 40% in improvement then it's just a waste of money. These marginal improvements are not worth it, they're meant only to get aroused and entice the owner's who've already purchased the top of the line... only to learn that in another year or two, that top of the line is now surpassed and labelled as vintage!

So be it maties! Once your system has achieved a certain threshold, that's it! Trying to better that it terns of exhorbitant spend just because that new gear is supposed to be the latest & greatest... well... I don't think so. Again, 40% improvement? Ok... at what price? 80grand for a pair of monoblocks! Mmm... must be really desperate to scratch that ego. Must have...must have...

As for me, it's the end of the road. Hats off to the lofty gear and those who can afford such high end prices, nothing wrong with that and respect .
For those who've already reached the threshold, just relaaax. Pour that scotch, light that cigar and enjoy those fine tunes!
Woof! RJ

Very, very well said RJ. I’m 64 and in a very similar situation as you and feel exactly the same!! I actually have a few pieces of quality equipment that some of I’ve had listed for sale but I am now thinking I very well may just hang onto, including a very lightly used pair of Classic 9 Logans, a pair of B&W book shelf, a Rogue Audio Stereo 100 tube amp, and a pair of Earl Geddes Abbey 12A speakers. It’s all paid for and I’d never be able to replace these items for what I paid for them. Crazy how things changed so quickly huh. Your last paragraph really hits home and is great advice, I think tonight it will be a bit of this and maybe some Jimmy Smith on the Hamond B-3, Prayer Meetin’ on the Odysseys/Krell

 

[Big Dog RJ]

That's nice gear Brad225 & Rob, the Aragon is legendary stuff! Glad to hear it's still going... I was under the impression that the brand ceased to exist. Hardly any are sold down under... I haven't seen a single unit since Naperville in 94!

DanR, that's some high quality gear you have, Rogue Audio, ML Classic 9's, Odessy & Krell... these are real top gear, and selling wouldn't be feasible unless you were to spend 5 -6 times more to gain any significant improvement. So why bother!
Also, I think the highest value item there is that Blue Label, now that's one for the road! Cheers RJ

 

[DanR]

That's nice gear Brad225 & Rob, the Aragon is legendary stuff! Glad to hear it's still going... I was under the impression that the brand ceased to exist. Hardly any are sold down under... I haven't seen a single unit since Naperville in 94!

DanR, that's some high quality gear you have, Rogue Audio, ML Classic 9's, Odessy & Krell... these are real top gear, and selling wouldn't be feasible unless you were to spend 5 -6 times more to gain any significant improvement. So why bother!
Also, I think the highest value item there is that Blue Label, now that's one for the road! Cheers RJ

Hahahahahahaha yep that Blue Label sure is premium

 

[Brandon Hartwick]

During the pandemic I got back into audio and settled on a Schiit Freya + tube preamp and a second hand Jeff Rowland model 1 power amp. I played around with some more expensive power amps for a bit that were over double what I payed but I think I'll be hanging onto this.

I was even thinking of making a custom faceplate that matches the newer models with that glorious CNC finish. With pricing on new gear getting out of control we'll just have to get better about buying used equipment and taking the necessary steps to make it last.

 

[Leporello]

Hi, my name is Kevin and was looking at reviews of Klipsch sub woofers to see if I could get some more less driven marketing answers but didn’t have much luck. I remember them being about barely above half way as far as ratings in their class. Still curious but in 2014 I replaced my Klipsch sub for a Martin Logan Dynamo 1000 as the first stage of rebuilding my old system. Improved it by 50%. It’s kinda depressing to read what has happened to the company on other threads and the lack of enthusiasm for ML. At $1000 I have been satisfied with this sub for 8 years now. I listen to music, watch movies and play video games on my system in a 12’ x 15’ living room with an open floor plan so you see everything from the kitchen as well. Since I’m recently retired and worked a lot out of town I haven’t even messed with it hardly and it also has low “miles”. My total system is probably only $5000 (roughly) and I am not going to do significant upgrades that push that number much higher. If I had more income I would dabble in becoming an audiophile but I don’t pretend I am but it’s interesting to read reviews and forums to learn more, which I’ve been doing for several years now. Love my woofer though.

Being an audiophile isn't necessarily about spending a ton of money.

 

[Leporello]

Yes, speaking of pricing, things are going bonkers everywhere, not just in highend audio. Speaking of which, just around 2019/20 during covid lockdown, the very last pair of CLX's sold for 50grand AUD. Now the Ren15a's are priced at 50grand and above depending on the finish. The 13A's are around 32grand and the 11A's are around 15grand. The Classic 9's are about half that.

Gone are the days where you can work hard, save up a bit and afford the highend... no chance now Charlie!

There are certain deals that only a handful of dealers are willing to do, and they are the ones who will gain a loyal customer base, just like my primary ML dealer, great chap! Always willing to help out in any way.

Unfortunately, in this business scenario I'm not sure how these prices are structured... for now the Neolith's are a cool 160grand!
One brand of tube gear that I've been so familiar with since I was a teen, is Conrad johnson. I currently own four pieces of their top end gear but it's now considered vintage! It was probably a miracle that I could afford it about a decade ago but now forget it!

The starting price point of CJ gear in Aus is around 7grand, and that's the most entry level integrated control amplifier. The preamps start at 9grand and goes upto 40grand for the top of the line Art88. The power amps start at 16grand and go upto 80grand, ha! No worries mate, just write that cheque or swipe that platinum card shall we!

My days of must have upgrades are over, and I was fortunate enough to put together all this gear starting from scratch over again since 2004/05. It took that long up until 2018 to acquire the CLX's, so I'm done! The only thing I do now, apart from getting the BF210 just recently, is I upgrade or mod the existing tube gear. This involves a lot of skill and steady hands and lot of knowledge in power supply design in Class A topology. Once the mods are done then it takes time to arrive at an ideal balance of trouble free operation, in terms of thermal stability and performance, to reduce levels of distortion and keep power supplies under control without going into thermal overload.

It took around three years to get these mods done, which included original parts and certification from the main brand. Now, that these mods have been done, I can confirm that it was totally worth it, mainly because it's performance sometimes surpasses the latest gear which costs 10 times more! And for what... most probably a marginal improvement in the latest gear... no point.

My benchmark in percentage of overall performance improvement must be at 40% and above. Or at least thereabouts...say 35% minimum. If the new gear isn't going to provide me that extra 35 to 40% in improvement then it's just a waste of money. These marginal improvements are not worth it, they're meant only to get aroused and entice the owner's who've already purchased the top of the line... only to learn that in another year or two, that top of the line is now surpassed and labelled as vintage!

So be it maties! Once your system has achieved a certain threshold, that's it! Trying to better that it terns of exhorbitant spend just because that new gear is supposed to be the latest & greatest... well... I don't think so. Again, 40% improvement? Ok... at what price? 80grand for a pair of monoblocks! Mmm... must be really desperate to scratch that ego. Must have...must have...

As for me, it's the end of the road. Hats off to the lofty gear and those who can afford such high end prices, nothing wrong with that and respect .
For those who've already reached the threshold, just relaaax. Pour that scotch, light that cigar and enjoy those fine tunes!
Woof! RJ

Steve Guttenberg "The Audiophilliac" recently did a video where he explains the price of audio gear has tracked inflation pretty well. It's an eye opener, and rings true. The price of the original Mac 275 amp, for example, compares well with the price of the reborn one when you correct for inflation. If current new prices are too rich for your blood, though, the used market is a good option. I bought my CLS II's used, and never look back. I have no intention of ever "upgrading" speakers. Probably true of amps at this point too. Maybe a good center and one or more BF subs at some point.

 

[Big Dog RJ]

Yep! Same here. The following were done on a check list just recently:
1. End game full range stats, CLX Art's-
2. TT rig with CJ tube phonostage-
3. Digital playback system, brand New Esoteric digital player-
4. Upgraded CJ preamp to full SE version-
5. Upgraded CJ monoblocks to full SE version plus mod on Class A bias-
6. Installation of full power loom by Nordost cables and accessories-
7. Just added the BF210 for those looow notes-
8. Sit back, light cigar & pour that scotch-

Mmm... all the above seems perfectly checked out so why bother! I must be really crazy or really desperate to upgrade anything further... but those have always been the famous last words. This entire revamp took me approx 15yrs. The mods on the CJ amplifiers took nearly two years alone, so only now they're settling in nicely and are really going top flight. I did some calculations and with recent prices plus logistics rates, upgrading those monoblocks to CJ's top of the line- ART108A's (160w Class A tube amps), will cost me around 90grand for the pair all up. That's a pretty penny!

I can clearly see the dog house now!
Woof! RJ

 

[Robert D]

Yep! Same here. The following were done on a check list just recently:
1. End game full range stats, CLX Art's-
2. TT rig with CJ tube phonostage-
3. Digital playback system, brand New Esoteric digital player-
4. Upgraded CJ preamp to full SE version-
5. Upgraded CJ monoblocks to full SE version plus mod on Class A bias-
6. Installation of full power loom by Nordost cables and accessories-
7. Just added the BF210 for those looow notes-
8. Sit back, light cigar & pour that scotch-

Mmm... all the above seems perfectly checked out so why bother! I must be really crazy or really desperate to upgrade anything further... but those have always been the famous last words. This entire revamp took me approx 15yrs. The mods on the CJ amplifiers took nearly two years alone, so only now they're settling in nicely and are really going top flight. I did some calculations and with recent prices plus logistics rates, upgrading those monoblocks to CJ's top of the line- ART108A's (160w Class A tube amps), will cost me around 90grand for the pair all up. That's a pretty penny!

I can clearly see the dog house now!
Woof! RJ

The scary thing, can we maintain this lifestyle once we are retired and have no income? You've got all of your endgame equipment, but what happens if a piece breaks down and cannot be repaired?
My wife and I are in our early 50s so have about another 10 years before we retire. Still have a small mortgage to pay but that's it. Plan on being debt free when retirement happens and having a nest egg saved up. Will it be enough? One of my neighbors is in his late 50s and we talked about mortgages. He said he wasn't worried about having a mortgage during retirement. To me that makes no sense. I know we wouldn't be able to maintain our present lifestyle with zero income and have to pay a mortgage. Heck, property tax and insurance for home/car is bad enough.

If this inflation continues and the stock market keeps crashing, we will be in the poor house when retired.

 

[WestCoastMLO]

I think "audiophile" has often been associated with spending big $$$ on gear. Audiophile - to me - just means someone who loves music. I've enjoyed music on a transistor radio, boombox, all-in-one stereo, Bluetooth soundbar, now, various evolutions of my home theater system. Did sound improve as I upgrade gear? Yes. Will I hit a point of diminishing returns, where throwing more $$$ at gear won't produce appreciably better sound? Probably. In-joy the music on whatever you have.

 

[Big Dog RJ]

Yes, very true Rob. In fact that's the whole reason why I've put off all upgrades that cost 6 figures... pointless! Nearly 35% of that actually goes to customs officials, logistics companies and clearing agents, absolute waste then the dealer margin. I really don't mind helping out my trusted dealers but sometimes they've got it pretty hard as well.

As for service and repair, I've managed to source three very good techs, they've worked on my CJ gear before and know it inside out, so no issues there, for now...

Times have certainly changed since 99/2000, those were the good old days! Even the very skilled techs are quite rare these days... most don't know how to repair, rather they just replace! It's like a good doc, once you find one just stick to him/her no matter how far you've got to travel.

Cheers, and enjoy those fine tunes!

 

[Brad225]

The scary thing, can we maintain this lifestyle once we are retired and have no income? You've got all of your endgame equipment, but what happens if a piece breaks down and cannot be repaired?
My wife and I are in our early 50s so have about another 10 years before we retire. Still have a small mortgage to pay but that's it. Plan on being debt free when retirement happens and having a nest egg saved up. Will it be enough? One of my neighbors is in his late 50s and we talked about mortgages. He said he wasn't worried about having a mortgage during retirement. To me that makes no sense. I know we wouldn't be able to maintain our present lifestyle with zero income and have to pay a mortgage. Heck, property tax and insurance for home/car is bad enough.

If this inflation continues and the stock market keeps crashing, we will be in the poor house when retired.

Robert, maybe I miss understood but, how does not having a mortgage in retirement make no sense?
It sounds like you won't have a mortgage when your retire and have some money saved. That sounds better than most people at this point in time.
You do have options. If you and your wife want something special you can take temporary work for fund the occasion.
My wife and I have steered a couple of friends to a reverse mortgage that finished funding their retirement. They can be a great option. If the people inheriting your property want to keep they can pay it off and do what they wish with the property.

You always have some options that are not desperation. My guess is you will be OK and have a good retirement.

 

[Robert D]

Robert, maybe I miss understood but, how does not having a mortgage in retirement make no sense?
It sounds like you won't have a mortgage when your retire and have some money saved. That sounds better than most people at this point in time.
You do have options. If you and your wife want something special you can take temporary work for fund the occasion.
My wife and I have steered a couple of friends to a reverse mortgage that finished funding their retirement. They can be a great option. If the people inheriting your property want to keep they can pay it off and do what they wish with the property.

You always have some options that are not desperation. My guess is you will be OK and have a good retirement.

Yes, no way I will have a mortgage during retirement. It is one of my neighbors that thought it would be ok to do that. Hes a smart guy too. Not sure where he is coming from on that.

I know we will be ok, but will we be able to maintain our present lifestyle? I think not. I guess time will tell. My point was that if one of our amplifiers breaks down with repair not an option and its going to cost $15,000 to replace it, will we be able to afford the shell that out during retirement?

 

[whtloh]

I think "audiophile" has often been associated with spending big $$$ on gear. Audiophile - to me - just means someone who loves music. I've enjoyed music on a transistor radio, boombox, all-in-one stereo, Bluetooth soundbar, now, various evolutions of my home theater system. Did sound improve as I upgrade gear? Yes. Will I hit a point of diminishing returns, where throwing more $$$ at gear won't produce appreciably better sound? Probably. In-joy the music on whatever you have.

I'm not a big spender, but my definition is different. I can no longer enjoy music from a transistor radio, boom box or something with tinny speakers. A soundbar is acceptable for background listening - if it comes with a subwoofer. It hurts my ears to listen to compressed music.

That said, I've scrounged almost all used equipment to put together a decent music system. The only real money I've spent has been to get an 8k preamp to access hifi signals from my TV.

 

[Narcosis]

I know what you're saying with regard to compressed music. We recently bought a new truck which came with a trial subscription to Sirius XM, and it bothers me when listening...