just plain disgusted

[User211]

I've had my share of issues with Vantages and now Summits.

I too am very sensitive to imbalance in the sound. The last set of panels I had were "ONLY" 3db off. That's enough to destroy imaging to my ears. Only one panel was then replaced, even though they are supposed to be "matched pairs". I have been VERY PATIENT as I do love the sound when it works. I haven't given up yet, and am working with a couple people at ML to get things resolved.

OK I don't want to drop a lemon here... but I have ALWAYS noticed a difference in sound output from each channel in all the MLs I have owned - even when panels have just been replaced. The fact of the matter, I believe, is that is very difficult to make both panels behave in an utterly consistent manner. Why this is so is probably because it is hard to get accurately matched & maintained tensioning over time, possibly crossover component tolerances and totally even distribution of whatever they spray onto the mylar (it is even visible that this is NOT consistent on a lot of ML panels I have seen).

I notice Roger Sanders ESL cookbook provides a design with a BUILT-IN panel tensioning mechanism. Trouble is this is elaborate to construct and I doubt we'll ever see it in an ML.

While the Ascent panels I have at the moment are the BEST I have ever owned, there is definately a difference in the audio output of each. This takes the form of "the left panel is definately marginally better at reproducing that frequency" and vice versa.

They are ESLs - we love 'em so we live with them - but like anything else - THEY ARE NOT FLAWLESS!!!

 

[Rbernst929]

Ok.. now im nervous.

I was seriously thinking about replacing my original aerius i panels even though they still sound good but years old. But, now im nervous about all the problems reported here. Am I better off replacing the aerius' with the new Source speakers?,,, or, should I try the new panels? What would you do? -Bob.

 

[roberto]

I was seriously thinking about replacing my original aerius i panels even though they still sound good but years old. But, now im nervous about all the problems reported here. Am I better off replacing the aerius' with the new Source speakers?,,, or, should I try the new panels? What would you do? -Bob.

Hola...what I would do is get the new Source. The problems reported here are only on one pair of Vantage. There are a lot of other Vantages with no problems...so don't worry regarding the new technology involved in the stat panels. It is the same, but improved. To my ears, the Source is somewhat better than the Aerius, the new stat panel has better microdynamics and more extension at the top and much more spread of the sound. The sweet spot is more open...listen it carefuly, and choose the one that you liked best!...trust your ears! happy listening,
Roberto.

 

[Rbernst929]

Thanks Roberto

Thanks Roberto.. I was going to replace them at this Christmas time. So, I will listen to the Sources. I also am apprehensive about replacing the aerius' panels myself. I am NOT handy. lol. -Bob.

 

[music again]

I think another lookover at the factory would minimize these problems and preserve martin logans intergrity this would save their customers a lot of problems. they trully make a great sounding speaker but on the third set I would be mad to.

when they replaced your panel music again how close are they now?

The "sound" stage is still what I call "pulled" to the right. I am sitting just to the right of center and never get the "full" experience I know they are capable of. I have tried just about everything to locate the problem to no avail. I though it might be the pre amp, but after talking to Dennis at Cary, we ruled that out. Still experimenting . . .

 

[FISH_MAN]

If they are close

I mean within +-2 db maybe use the controlls on your pre pro to iron this out that's what its their for right? the only problem with that though is the base on the raised side will be more then

 

[robertawillisjr]

How did you determine the disparity? 1K tone with meter or...?

 

[FISH_MAN]

what?

please elaborate

 

[C.A.P]

The "sound" stage is still what I call "pulled" to the right. I am sitting just to the right of center and never get the "full" experience I know they are capable of. I have tried just about everything to locate the problem to no avail. I though it might be the pre amp, but after talking to Dennis at Cary, we ruled that out. Still experimenting . . .

Have you ever thought it might be room related. I have had many a room make for unbalanced sound. Stand directly in the center of the ML listen with your back to them dead center. How is the image ? Then slowly turn the volume down . Does the louder side stay on that side ? This sounds like a room node !

 

[music again]

The "sound" stage is still what I call "pulled" to the right. I am sitting just to the right of center and never get the "full" experience I know they are capable of. I have tried just about everything to locate the problem to no avail. I though it might be the pre amp, but after talking to Dennis at Cary, we ruled that out. Still experimenting . . .

Actually I used an SPL meter with a test tone CD and found it to be 1 db off. However, when I returned the Summits to ML, they reported it was off by 3db. I'm sure they have a more sofisticated way of measuring than what I was doing. In fact they did find it to be 3bd off.

Yes, there is a balance control on the Cary SLP-03's remote (but not on the unit itself). I find that when I get to a +2 to the left side the image is more centered and the sound is a little fuller in the middle, but this is a band aid.

I do want to add that ML has been very accommodating throughout these trials.

 

[VanDaRo]

Agreed. It's probably the room. That's why they put a balance knob on the preamp...

~VDR

 

[FISH_MAN]

I think not

I think what we are talking about goes beyond the room. when you switch
speakers and the sound problem follows the speaker you can not blame the room.

 

[music again]

Have you ever thought it might be room related. I have had many a room make for unbalanced sound. Stand directly in the center of the ML listen with your back to them dead center. How is the image ? Then slowly turn the volume down . Does the louder side stay on that side ? This sounds like a room node !

I have ruled that out for one major reason . . . . I have had a pair of Vantages, a different pair of Summits in the EXACT same position as these Summits, and did NOT have the problem with the sound being "fuller" to the right side.

 

[C.A.P]

Man o man ! I feel for ya ! I had a set of Magnepans that I sold because I had rt side image that was not fixable to my ears. Every one including the purchaser said I was screwy and I told him , "Your prolly right " but I could not listen to them !

 

[Jungle Jack]

Hello,
I have a 3db imbalance on my Vantages as well. Unfortunately, I really do not know what to do or can be done. While I still love my speakers, the veneer finish chipping if you stare at it hard enough and this imbalance have left me contemplating other speakers. Bitter pill to swallow at over 5 thousand dollars per pair. My Aerius i's do not have this problem. Nor do the Montages.
ML

 

[robertawillisjr]

please elaborate

Did you use a meter to guage the differences in balance? If you play a 1k tone and measure at the seating position are both speakers equal? If they are and you still notice a difference when playing music, then your room or speaker placement is probably the problem.

If you don't have any equipment that generates a tone or white or pink noise, there are a few utility CD's that do.

 

[sleepysurf]

It's unfortunate you've had such a run of bad luck with ML QC. Few of us have had such experiences. Knowing the corporate culture of ML, they'll work with you until they make it right.

As for your original frequency imbalance issue, there can be a LOT of reasons for that.

For quite some time I also thought my Summits were unbalanced, with the image shifted to the right. Turns out the left Summits bottom woofer was not working! It turned out to be a loose connection, and after fixing it, I expected the problem to be resolved. Unfortunately, imaging was still shifted to the right, even when I swapped the speakers! Turns out my room acoustics were to blame. It wasn't until I got my Denon 3808, with Audyssey room EQ, that I could both hear and see (via their EQ correction plots) that the panels were functionally identical. I've since added some acoustic treatments which significantly improved the imaging and tonal balance.

I've also learned that absolutely precise speaker placement is paramount for ideal sound. It's not enough to only measure the woofer cabinet distance from the wall. You need to measure the stator panel distance as well, especially if you tweak the panel tilt angles. Even a 2-3 degree disparity in forward tilt will create a tonal disparity.

Hang in there! I'm sure ML will eventually rectify these issues.

 

[music again]

It's unfortunate you've had such a run of bad luck with ML QC. Few of us have had such experiences. Knowing the corporate culture of ML, they'll work with you until they make it right.

Hang in there! I'm sure ML will eventually rectify these issues.

I am definitely hanging in there. between my dealer and ML, we're coming to a solution quickly.

By the way, your's is one of my most favorite systems here!
I have it printed off and refer to it often, as I plan my next moves.

Right now I have the Summits, a 2 channel Sanders power amp (600 watts into 4 ohms), Cary SLP-03 (4 12AU7 tubes) and an Oppo 981-HD, Kimber Kable Hero IC's, not so good speaker cable I made up with Monster ends and a Salamander Synergy double (might change to a triple).

I have some cash right now to add a couple of something new, but haven't figured out what yet! So many options, not enough money.

I DEFINITELY need some type of power conditioner ASAP though. My summits are plugged into the wall as is the power amp. The rest are plugged into a monster power strip. A conditioner WILL be my next purchase. Lack of one could be causing my issues. I'm looking at the Equi=Tech Q2 or Son of Q SR., the Furman 20I, the Beldin PF60, Audience adeptResponse 6, and Exactpower EP15A. Again, too many choices, and I would not be able to audition them all, so I have to read revciews and take advice from many members on this forum!

 

[MOON]

Music Again,

On power conditioners, I have my whole system , amp , pre cdp, logans plugged into an Audience Adept Response R12. It made a big difference in my system . I haven't had the chance to audition any other brands.

Cheers

 

[lpaudio2]

Well I have set #4 in the mail. How hard can this be... Driver balance is important, there is a reason that companies match drivers, crossover caps etc!!!!

Luckily I am in the position of being able to drive down to martin logan and gas will not be too bad, it would only end up being 1-2 tanks. If set #4 does not work, I will be driving down there, personally listening to them before accepting delivery.

I am honestly glad that I started this thread, I thought I was the only one.