Just bought my first MLs! A few questions

[Emilner]

First I wanted to says hello! I have been surfing the site for a few weeks and finally registered.

I heard a pair of Martin Logan's for the first time many years ago at a cocktail party. I will never forget that day. At the time I was selling audio systems at Tops and the best stuff we had was Infinity's Kappa line (they were actually pretty good speakers). When I walked into the room I was drawn to the amazing sound coming out of these two pieces of art. It was like nothing I had heard before, I vowed to get a pair someday. Over the years I slowly downsized my towers from Infinity SM 155s to my current Modulus system. With a wife and kids and other priorities not to mention a lack of a proper space to place them, I have been unable to realize my dream.

Well that changed when we took down the center wall of our house and created a great room. It is a transitional styled room with some space to place the speakers. I slowly started planting the seeds with my wife. It took a few months of transitioning her views from "are you nuts?" to "we will talk about it" and finally "why don't you do it!". I cried. It was finally time.

Then came the research phase. Initially on the list was a pair of Vantages. I have been tracking them for a month or so. It was a little hard to stomach the $4k entry price knowing that was only part of the price. While I waited for a better deal or a gently used set to show up I started considering ESLs or Vistas. Well, that was all finalized when I saw Audioholics sale on the Vistas. For a week I looked at the website, seeing those glorious pieces of art waiting there, gently saying, "ready when you are". I spent a few nights reading hundreds of threads here, pouring over all of your experiences, looking for that last nudge to confirm the go. My wife was worried, I think. She probably thought I was going a little mental, like she missed the fact that I've always been there. One night we were speaking through a few martinis (always the best conversations happen here) and I said I think I'm going to pull the trigger. She looked over with a little excitement and said go for it. I think my excitement rubbed off on her or she might be just trying to move on. I knew then it was done.

The next day I placed the order. That was Wednesday. I was super excited to see an email with tracking numbers the very next morning. Best yet was the tracking numbers said they would be delivered the 28th! Today!! I was so excited. I'm not one to wait well. When I'm a go, instant gratification is what I'm all about. To my horror, well that's harsh, to my dissatisfaction the date was updated to May first. Mild sadness set in. The martini tasted sour. I knew I shouldn't have made a sour apple one. Well, what's a few more days after 2 decades of waiting I said to my self. To top that off I dropped my iPhone and broke the screen. What a day. Hopefully a nice steak tonight at Mark Joseph's with friends will brighten the day. Sorry, where was I?

For those I have not yet put to sleep I do have a few questions.

Which amp should I get?

Just kidding, I could not resist.

Hear is my plan. I do not have the ideal place to put them, but it will do. It is in the den part of the kitchen. They will be on both sides of the fireplace. I can bring them out about 3 feet from the wall. I know not perfect but I will place with wall treatments to compensate. If that doesn't work maybe I'll just knock a wall or two down, lol. I know I need to watch the smoke from the kitchen and fireplace. Hopefully that won't be a problem. I am going to use them 50% for music and 50% TV. Not just movies but regular shows as well. The initial plan is to forgo SS and just stay with classic stereo with possible a Depth I to supplement.

Initially I will power them with a Pioneer Elite SC 27 as a preamp and an Onkyo Integra M504 amp. The amp was bought new in 95. It's pretty solid and is stabile into 2 ohms. It is rated at 165 into 8 ohms but I cannot find the rating into 4 or 2. I'm guessing a minimum of 250. That should give plenty of headroom. One thought I had was to biamp them with the pio powering the stats and the M504 on the woofers. Thoughts? I am using Monoprice 12 gauge wiring and I plan on getting an Oppo 93. for now I have a good Pany BD player and will be using iTunes/Internet etc.

The plan is to see how the system does with the amp/preamp. Eventually I'd love to step up to a Mcintosh, Pass etc. I'm not sure if I would need to go past the Elite on the pre, its a pretty good unit. Plus it has a great multizone set up that is easy to use.

Any thoughts on the setup? I would love if you have any comments regarding my initial setup and placement and if I am overlooking something.

The waiting goes on. It can be said to never wish for the future to come for you will miss all today has to offer. Yeah, and regular exercise and a sensible diet would help me drop that 20 (ok 30). Cocktail anyone?

Ed

 

[Brad225]

Congratulations Ed and welcome to the club. Your story sounds like so many of us that agonized over the purchase with spouses finally being the last push to proceed.

I think your approach is a good one. Get use to the Vistas with your current equipment. I'm sure you will enjoy days, weeks or months tweaking them. After that try some different equipment if you don't have the sound you're looking for.

As far as placement is concerned. Will they be in front of the face of the fireplace? The further the better. Acoustic treatment on the side of the fireplace as well as behind the speakers will help considerably.

You might also want to try covering the front of the fireplace with acoustic panels. Just set them in place while listening and remove them for normal WAF. This will have a noticeable effect on the depth of sound stage and imaging.

Good luck and keep us updated. Pics of your room and system are enjoyed by all so post some.

 

[projectormovielover]

I think pioneer and ML are like peanut butter and onions

 

[twich54]

Welcome, interesting story Ed !

IMO putting them in that close proxemity to kitchen and fireplace is asking for trouble, try as you might smoke will more than 'get in your eyes'

 

[Brad225]

I think pioneer and ML are like peanut butter and onions

I think that will depend on who you ask.

My father in law would eat a ham, peanut butter and onion sandwich. He was always the only one in the room that thought it was a good idea.

 

[Gordon Gray]

I think pioneer and ML are like peanut butter and onions

Hi PML,

You want to tell us what you really think?

Kidding aside, bottom line is we all have to start somewhere. And starting in this manner will allow the OP to experience the ML sound and furthermore, appreciate the electronics upgrade in the future to the fullest possible extent.

As we all know, finding the audio grail is a long journey.

Not a bad way to go IMHO.

GG

 

[tsv_1]

Welcome Ed!

I too enjoyed reading your missive. "speaking through a few martinis" HaHa... good stuff!

Keep us posted on your progress.

Cheers

 

[Emilner]

I think pioneer and ML are like peanut butter and onions

Sorry, I didn't know they could not work together. Unfortunately I can't justify spending the $ to go all out on a dream system from scratch. And frankly I think it will be fun to slowly upgrade the system.

Welcome, interesting story Ed !

IMO putting them in that close proxemity to kitchen and fireplace is asking for trouble, try as you might smoke will more than 'get in your eyes'

I am concerned as well but I don't have much choice. I'm not as worried about the kitchen since I always use my commercial vent when cooking (1200cfm modern air over a 48" Capital Culinarian). It really eliminates the smoke and excess smells. The fireplace is a different story. We do use it and they will be approx 3-4' on either side of it (proud roughly 2.5-3'). It is a matter of having to perform more frequent cleanings?

Welcome Ed!

I too enjoyed reading your missive. "speaking through a few martinis" HaHa... good stuff!

Keep us posted on your progress.

Cheers

All great conversations begin with a cocktail!

Thanks for the replies! Another 24 LONG hours to go. I have clicked the tracking number a dozen times hoping for a surprise.

 

[Emilner]

What a difference a day makes. After years of dreams, months of planning, and days of nail biting, they have arrived. I received the text at 10:29 am with a picture of those 2 glorious boxes waiting, patiently, in my garage. Ahhhh relief, the falcon has landed. I make my own hours at work so I had planned on making it home with hopefully minimal involvement with the local law enforcement. But ahhhh- today I would have to wait. A most poorly planned meeting dab smack in the middle of the day would draw every inch of attention and drag the wait a little while longer. Luckily, it was a most productive lunch with a great firm and I think we will have a bright future working together. But back to what is important- I dang near forgot to say hello to the wife and kids. I was moving with great haste up the stairs to remove the noose, I mean tie, and a disruption in the force was earily present. I stood corrected, said hello to my best friend and my two angels and then double timed to the closet to get ready to work.

As I don't wish to put my new forum buddies to sleep I will skip the discussion of unpacking, searching for cables, and all the rest of the rigamarrow. I had convinced myself that I should initially expect less than stellar performance. I knew that breaking in was just getting started, that I working with temp wiring, that placement was based on an initial guess. When that first CD starting spinning I was pleased with the sound but found a lack of any bass or sonic depth. I started wondering if it was break in or setup. Then it clicked, my receiver was still set up for small fronts with a 100hz sub crossover. A few tweaks and I was on my way to breathtaking amazement.

I may have a less refined sensitivity to sound as some of the seasoned folks here (give me time) but these works of art astonish me! I was worried about the low end but they don't disappoint. Imaging is very very good. I know over time it will improve. The midrange is slightly flat and the bass is a little muddled but that defines break in. I could not be happier! Even my wife moved me over to hear them.

Two observations/questions.

The imaging is Very focused. When in the sweet spot it is amazing. 2 feet over and it suffers. Will the soundstage improve?

Second- only my right speaker has a blue light lit under the ML logo. The left one is dead. The speakers seem to both be working fine but the one light is out. What is the light for (totally missing from the manual) and do I have an issue?

Sorry for a brief review but I have some listening to do!

 

[|Tch0rT|]

The light is so you know the panels are on and energized. Call ML about it, I think I read on here it's an easy fix.

 

[TomDac]

Congrats on the new speakers and welcome aboard!

 

[Emilner]

The light is so you know the panels are on and energized. Call ML about it, I think I read on here it's an easy fix.

Thanks, I tried searching but came up empty handed. The owners manual is amazing but frankly it has no information regarding the blue light.

Congrats on the new speakers and welcome aboard!

Thanks!

 

[ML Goat]

Congrats on your purchase.. I'm a new ML owner also. I got the ESL's.. They sound fantastic. You hear things and details that were not present before. Its incredible.. And these things aren't just for music,they absolutely excel at movies.. The sound stage and hearing things move past the speakers is awesome! I love how they look..

 

[invenio]

Two observations/questions.

The imaging is Very focused. When in the sweet spot it is amazing. 2 feet over and it suffers. Will the soundstage improve?

Second- only my right speaker has a blue light lit under the ML logo. The left one is dead. The speakers seem to both be working fine but the one light is out. What is the light for (totally missing from the manual) and do I have an issue?

Sorry for a brief review but I have some listening to do!

1. The sweet spot will be very limited with your speakers. I use Vantages and my "sweet spot" at 13 feet away from my speakers is about 8 inches. If I move a few inches off from center I know I'm off. This is an inherent limitation of electrostatics speakers. Despite what other people say, I think ML electrostats are a one person listening event.

2. As for the light,.... something is broken. It should be on. If the sound is not affected I think you probably got lucky and it's just a bad light.

Maybe I didn't get the information from your posts, but how far off the wall are your speakers? I find that ML really need to be off the back wall or you need massive sound treatment behind them. I keep mine about 5 feet off the back wall for optimal sound. Room acoustics are probably the most overlooked aspects of a listening setup.

Also, you may want to experiment with the rest of your equipment (as budget allows). You can look into inexpensive brands like Jolida to get a taste of the "tube sound." I use a conrad johnson preamp and amplifier and I really like the sound, but that may be slightly outside of your budget at this point.

Keep up the good work, congrats on the purchase,... and most importantly... enjoy!

 

[Emilner]

ML- thanks and congrats! I was seriously considering ESLs, in the end I think they are very similar to the Vistas.

Invenio- I can really see how laser focused the sweet spot is. When in the sweet spot it sounds like a center channel is running, move over a little bit and the image quickly loses focus and moves towards the closer speaker.

As far as placement goes- As with many things in life- nothing is perfect. I am keeping them 3' off the wall (as measured from the panel, not the back of the base). I cannot move them any further out. I will attempt to address with wall treatments in time. Question- when they are too close to the wall what suffers? What should I look out for? I am roughly 12-13' from the speakers as well. They are spread approx 7.5' apart. I can't spread out much further as I am only 2.5' from the side wall.

I opened up the bottom of the speaker as per MLs instruction to see if the light wire wiggled free and all was fine. I'm waiting to hear back from them.

I do intend on upgrading the audio components. I first wanted to get a lot of experience with them so I could really appreciate the upgrades and also find what are the weak spots.

All in all I am extremely happy! I am going to work on the imaging to begin with. I am also going to get a center channel. Space is again a major limiting factor. I would love a Motif or EM C2 but the depth blows those out of the water. So it looks like I am limited to a Motion C or a leftover Encore. Thoughts?

 

[invenio]

No situation is ever ideal, so we all must work with what we've got. As for your question, I think you will find that if you move them out the overall sound will improve. The soundstage will sound more full, you'll probably notice more clarity as you are not getting the delayed wave off the wall, you'll probably also get a more balanced high to low sound as the rear wave is only the highs bouncing back at you, whereas the sub is forward projecting only. You can certainly experiment a little by pulling them out temporarily, just to see what they sound like. Be careful with putting them to far into the corners (it sounds like your pretty close to both the back and the side walls). You may want to move your listening position in a little to maintain a good angle of separation of the speakers but still be able to keep adequate distance off the walls.

If the positioning is a severe limitation on the sound, probably the next best thing (and cheapest) is some copious sound insulation behind and to the side of the speakers. As for further upgrades, the sky is the limit so I would take it slow, enjoy what you have, keep an eye out for bargains and slowly work your way up.

 

[Emilner]

Well, after a month of listening to these beauties I am hooked! I am also a little lighter in the wallet! I quickly found out the M504 was not up to the task, which was surprising as it is a pretty stout beast. I guess it is just not stabile enough into the lower ohm range. I pulled the trigger on an Emotiva XPA 2 with a UMC pre. The UMC is a temp pre until their new XMC comes out. What a difference! I was struggling with home theatre and strong dynamic songs but now the headroom is so vast, well let's just say I am way happy. Up next is a Depth I sub...

 

[MOON]

Hi Ed,
If you can get the stators 5 feet off the wall, that would be the magic ticket. Three feet is too close.

 

[jmschnur]

Look at the tweak section for Jim powers flash
Light trick of aiming the speakers . ( it may well be in the manual by now). This will help broaden the sweet spot a bit .


Also if not 3 feet, than 4 feet.

Breakin does take a while as well.


J

 

[Emilner]

Unfortunately I cannot bring them any further from the wall, it is impossible. As it stands the sound is incredible though. I do have them toed in.