agreed Bernard........ Audiophiles be damned !!
Is the Martin Logan brand declining?
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agreed Bernard........ Audiophiles be damned !!
amey01
Well-known member
The marketing budget has to be managed in a holistic sense.
Are shows the best use of a marketing budget for a speaker which is eminently room-dependent; like ML? I doubt it.
amey01
Well-known member
Agree entirely!
It's not that high-end hifi is dying; or that "ML is declining" - it is more that you simply can't sustain hifi shops which are used solely for people to walk into, demo equipment for free, then walk out and buy online.
I agree hifi shops are nice. I agree hifi shops are the ideal way of presenting/auditioning/selling hifi equipment. But they are simply not a sustainable business model this day and age.
So match the online price, you say? It simply can't be done with the high real-estate and running costs of a shop.
Add to that the fact that the shop can rarely provide immediacy either. With all the options available these days (colours, features, etc), most times the shop has to place an internet-order for what you want anyway. So you may as well do it yourself!
PS> I have a Model D. Great machine.
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I agree but.....with the lack of dealers that stock you could get a pretty good idea of what different models sound like. Like I said Kef was selling the hell out of their LS50’s. I just think with a little effort the sound could be OK and st the very least plant some seeds into minds to consider.
amey01
Well-known member
But the LS50 is a speaker that sounds great anywhere. A large ML is entirely different. Bad sound at a show could your brand more damage than good.
My opinion. Dealers need to offer more. Clear upgrade paths allowing you to save money. Taking on used inventory and selling it online. Making delivery and room setup help to anyone that wants or needs it. Offer best value - not best price. Can the manufacturer do anything to reduce inventory costs? I would guess there would be some incentives if they believe their dealer network is important.
I could have purchased my last big purchase online. I chose a dealer because of the difficulty if something went bad in shipping. I was given a decent deal - not the absolute lowest price but a good one.
They also need to sell online. There is no reason why they couldn't and decrease service based on it. Do both!! It's just another distribution channel.
These are the brick and mortar stores I see that are surviving.
I could have purchased my last big purchase online. I chose a dealer because of the difficulty if something went bad in shipping. I was given a decent deal - not the absolute lowest price but a good one.
They also need to sell online. There is no reason why they couldn't and decrease service based on it. Do both!! It's just another distribution channel.
These are the brick and mortar stores I see that are surviving.
Did you ever scull or row crew ? I took my first sculling class after I had my Concept 2 for a number of years. We happen to have some premiere rowing water nearby that colleges travel to for competitions and to train.
amey01
Well-known member
Not really. My wife does both seriously, attending comps, etc. As for me, I just have a paddle around occasionally.
ctbarker32
Member
@Peter Soderberg I gather you work for ML? I think your reply is a little tone deaf. It's not a matter of optimum setup. I have done the work and my Vantage's sit more than 3 feet from back wall, etc. The problem I have with the new ML Butt is it will severely limit my adjustment options (side to side) for Toe-In, etc. - I don't have this problem with my Vantage. I have a designated space that has worked for decades but I have not had to contend with the footprint of ML Butt before. If you saw a picture of my setup, it would be immediately clear that I would have less, not more installation options. This has really given me pause about upgrading and I again predict that the next gen of ML ESL's will have to address this issue.
I think that their target market will be putting them in very large rooms and some of us are no longer their target market.
Technology is improving dramatically in terms of getting a lot of sound out of a very small speaker. Frankly I think that ESL panels have almost become a fashion statement for people with room to set them up.
Sorry, I love my ML speakers, but I think that is closer to the truth.
Technology is improving dramatically in terms of getting a lot of sound out of a very small speaker. Frankly I think that ESL panels have almost become a fashion statement for people with room to set them up.
Sorry, I love my ML speakers, but I think that is closer to the truth.
Sure, small speakers can sound amazing these days. But at the end of the day, moving large volumes of air is going to be thing that gives you the concert experience. We are just
going to have to wait till the day that our amplifier are directly wired to our brains
Sure, small speakers can sound amazing these days. But at the end of the day, moving large volumes of air is going to be thing that gives you the concert experience. We are just
going to have to wait till the day that our amplifier are directly wired to our brains
I'm not sure I agree with that statement because you are implying that having a large sheet of Mylar is the only way to move large volumes of air. Yes you need to move air, but there are many ways to do that. For example I'm surprised at the volume of air some folded ribbon tweeters can create. There is a lot of surface area in a very compact space.
ESL's are just one means to an end and they have just as many downsides as upsides.
My ML's have an extremely small sweet spot where the stereo imaging works well. Simply standing up causes the higher frequencies to drop off noticeably. Sure I could cure that with even taller ESL panels, but that's not going to happen.
Granted they aren't sending as much sound at the ceiling and floor which reduces those kind of reflections, but there are also the entire rear firing waves to deal with which make placement much more of a chore.
Notice the number of "former" ML owners here who either had space constraints or found something else that they liked better. I'm not saying ML speakers are bad, but they are to some extent an aesthetic. People will attribute sound qualities to them just because of how they look. They have an impressive look to them. I've even noticed ML speakers in some TV series and movies as props to make a place look more futuristic/eclectic.
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I didn't mean to imply that only ESLs can move a lot of air (actually create waves in the air). Cones have been doing that for years. All I meant was that from an engineering point of view, everything is compromise. If you want to have small speakers, then you have to give up something else.
And yes, ESL have compromises also. Purists would say that hybrid ESLs are an example of that.
Well. You are either in MLs target market or you aren't. It's a specialty product. Not everyone with a pulse is suited for it. There are upsides and downsides to any product. I like the ML product. People that get into the masterpiece line - hell they'll build a room for them if they have to. It's really about passion for the hobby. Some people aren't really that into it but might have some decent kit. Big speakers are 'it' for me as are planars.
Yeah, I guess I'm in the camp of wanting a pair since college, finally buying a pair to check off my bucket list, and now I've scratched that itch.
ElectroNoob
Well-known member
Same with me as well. The first time I listened to electrostatic speakers was a private VIP room in a club around 20 yrs ago. I was into car audio at the time (in my 20's) but it made a very big impression. I never heard anything so transparent and so clear. It was like sound was coming out of thin air. I forgot (or maybe I was too buzzed) to remember the make and model of the speakers but do remember thinking to myself that I will own a pair of electrostatic speakers someday. The club owner did say he spent over $200K on the audio equipment in that room so whatever it was it was top of the line.
Mark,
It was an itch for me as well. My dream system was Martin Logans with Mark Levinson amps back in the early 90's. Unfortunately, I've acquired the upgrade bug which I suppose I should squash.
But, agree with you that buying MLs is a fashion statement of sorts. Electrostatics are relatively rare and from a technical viewpoint are interesting. My Montis sound better than my old
cone speakers. But is that because they are electrostatics or because they cost 8 times as much? I don't know.
I bought a Mazda RX-7 with the rotary engine for much the same reason. A unique engine.
It was an itch for me as well. My dream system was Martin Logans with Mark Levinson amps back in the early 90's. Unfortunately, I've acquired the upgrade bug which I suppose I should squash.
But, agree with you that buying MLs is a fashion statement of sorts. Electrostatics are relatively rare and from a technical viewpoint are interesting. My Montis sound better than my old
cone speakers. But is that because they are electrostatics or because they cost 8 times as much? I don't know.
I bought a Mazda RX-7 with the rotary engine for much the same reason. A unique engine.
Bernard
Well-known member
After my Quad 57s I realized that I could not go back from electrostats.
amey01
Well-known member
+1. They're certainly unique.
Hammerhead
Well-known member
OK, so, tl;dr, but some good points made. I think we're at the tail end of a pendulum swing that began with the iPad and MP3, but I observe is starting to swing back to an earnest interest in the experience of music, not just the hearing of it.
I think the rise of high-res services like Tidal, incorporation of high performance but quite affordable DACs (yes, you could say I'm biased) and a younger market that is looking for substance and value over marketing flim-flam and name cache may be playing a part in, a different explain, the resurgence of some brands.
In all, I think it's a combination of factors. The next few years will be interesting.
Sent from my SM-T813 using Tapatalk
I think the rise of high-res services like Tidal, incorporation of high performance but quite affordable DACs (yes, you could say I'm biased) and a younger market that is looking for substance and value over marketing flim-flam and name cache may be playing a part in, a different explain, the resurgence of some brands.
In all, I think it's a combination of factors. The next few years will be interesting.
Sent from my SM-T813 using Tapatalk
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