ElectroNoob
Well-known member
If ML and the moderators are willing I think ML should have their own section so they have a platform for Q&A.
Is the Martin Logan brand declining?
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Peter, thank you for responding. I understand and respect your viewpoint re the forum. But I think from time to time your input can be invaluable to provide perspective and a human connection to the company. As end users, we often speculate without having a clear idea of what we are speculating about. Your input helps to provide valuable insight and context.
I don't think they want that.... Peter said they view this as OUR forum.... and do not want to get into discussions etc... As I said in my prior post -- this is not atypical... So I'm not talking down about it... Just the way it is.
The only product I own that actually has this type of involvement is from PS Audio... Paul seems to utilize the forum (his forum btw) ... as both a way to listen to customers, hype up the product, get people excited, try to help people that are having problems etc... He also reaches out - again with 'Pauls Posts' - where he basically blogs about multiple audio topics and other things not necessarily related to audio... But, it is really a great way to touch base with your customer, add fuel to the fire for us audio nuts, and keep the company's face in front of the customer. I think its brilliant in that he is cultivating current customer - and obviously getting word of mouth to possible new customers. Not only that - but it hits on all cylinders in regards to what you guys were talking about... The difference is basically - he is the owner of the company.....
My guess is that the new ML product is super... I have yet to hear it though.... When I saw the size of that woofer cabinet - I said 'Yes!!!' .... I thought that in itself would help smooth out the bass.... If I run into a dealer that doesn't have them bumped up the glass window up front by the front door - while the salesman BS about some home theater installation they need to do.... maybe it would be worth my while.... I know they are out there - like I have heard Davinci is ....but again.... I live in Michigan.... I have a Wilson/Sonus Faber/ ARC/Mac dealer 2 miles away from my house... The guy refuses to sell panels....and he is the #1 Wilson dealer in the nation.... and I am not that crazy about his expensive product... Although the Stradiveri are awesome....
ElectroNoob
Well-known member
I think ML is missing a big opportunity by either not participating in owner forums or hosting one themselves. The idea of connecting to your customers is crucial to building a respected brand. Throwing up pictures and specs on your website is not enough. People want to ask questions and get REAL answers from the company, not hearsay.
I agree !!!
I guess here is the 1 dollar question. What differentiates Paradigm from Martin Logan? And is there a different marketing approach for either ? Paradigm has come out w their new top tier product. They also have lower tier product. This looks and feels the same to me. Is the customer different? I think it is.
If you did a car analogy - I'd say ML is Lexus and Paradigm is Toyota. Both good brands. One customer wants to be handed a cup of coffee when they walk in the door because it is a top tier product with some cache and the expectation of service comes with that. The other person will take a bottled water if offered because they want a decent car to drive home and that's the end of it. The Lexus owner gets a Christmas card and possibly a birthday card. I think we want a Christmas card. Lol.
Does ML differentiate between these customers ? Maybe I'm full of it. Haha.
ElectroNoob
Well-known member
I see it as different technology. Paradigm are dynamic drivers whiles Martin Logan are ribbon/electrostatic. Each have their own distinct sound and don't really compete with each other too much (that's why both brands have a products in all price ranges).
Peter thanks for responding on this thread; you, Dennis, Joe, et-al are the "long-term, passionate employees" I referred to in my post, so we know you are there and see your work on platforms like YouTube or at shows. But much happens on the digital platforms these days, as the reach is broader, and time-alignment (e.g. us both being at a show, chatting/talking 'live') is not a problem. For instance, I'd love to visit the ML room at CES and chat with ML staff, but I can't be there this year (nor have I for the last 5+ years).
My plea was for more participation by one or more of you on these platforms in a way we can interact. So if I want to ask a question about cardioid bass alignments in the Masterpiece series, where do I have that discussion?
As for this forum, it is home to the largest concentration of ML owners and houses a huge amount of discoverable information that helps old and new owners alike. If ML views this as our playground and does not want to participate, then I view that as a missed opportunity and disservice to us owners, especially as there is no clear alternative.
If ML ran their own curated forum, and chose to use that as the only interactive exchange for product Q&A and related topics, that would be fine, at least there would be a way to get answers, opinion, etc. and those could be cross-linked to threads here and settle speculation, provide definitive answers, etc.
But I believe much could be gained by participating here. If the concern is out-of-control threads and members, maybe the prior suggestion of a sub-forum where Tom gives you admin rights to curate as you see fit might help.
One final comment on other platforms like FaceBook; it is not necessarily a great vehicle for the kind of interactions I'm thinking of, as it has a highly transient nature and has very poor discoverability. On some of the manufacturers pages I follow, there is an endless (and tiresome) stream of the same FAQs over and over, and telling people to do searches is futile.
Forum platforms like this one have much better persistence, structure and discoverability. It would even benefit from more structuring and condensation of information so it benefits current and prospective customers, and having ML's direct participation in defining and fleshing out structure, contributing to content, etc. would be great for both the brand and the users.
The fact that it is not owned and controlled by the brand would also give it more authenticity as a knowledge and information repository and not another marketing vehicle.
Again, thanks for chiming in, and I hope you do consider some of the above points.
My plea was for more participation by one or more of you on these platforms in a way we can interact. So if I want to ask a question about cardioid bass alignments in the Masterpiece series, where do I have that discussion?
As for this forum, it is home to the largest concentration of ML owners and houses a huge amount of discoverable information that helps old and new owners alike. If ML views this as our playground and does not want to participate, then I view that as a missed opportunity and disservice to us owners, especially as there is no clear alternative.
If ML ran their own curated forum, and chose to use that as the only interactive exchange for product Q&A and related topics, that would be fine, at least there would be a way to get answers, opinion, etc. and those could be cross-linked to threads here and settle speculation, provide definitive answers, etc.
But I believe much could be gained by participating here. If the concern is out-of-control threads and members, maybe the prior suggestion of a sub-forum where Tom gives you admin rights to curate as you see fit might help.
One final comment on other platforms like FaceBook; it is not necessarily a great vehicle for the kind of interactions I'm thinking of, as it has a highly transient nature and has very poor discoverability. On some of the manufacturers pages I follow, there is an endless (and tiresome) stream of the same FAQs over and over, and telling people to do searches is futile.
Forum platforms like this one have much better persistence, structure and discoverability. It would even benefit from more structuring and condensation of information so it benefits current and prospective customers, and having ML's direct participation in defining and fleshing out structure, contributing to content, etc. would be great for both the brand and the users.
The fact that it is not owned and controlled by the brand would also give it more authenticity as a knowledge and information repository and not another marketing vehicle.
Again, thanks for chiming in, and I hope you do consider some of the above points.
Peter Soderberg
Well-known member
all good points. I can not make such decisions myself but can move it to someone that can. understand that is an added job to someones list so it may not be a daily thing. i, out of habit do check it most days but i am usually multitasking
as to other marketing avenues such as YouTube, Devin told me yesterday my crawling on the floor for best sub placement has been viewed over 1.1 Million times. i refer many people to our videos as a way to show us as humans, don't take ourselves too seriously, and a good way to speak to the customer. Have to say that is an effective way of marketing, knowledge share.
ONE THING I must add. We where bought by Shoreview as was a controlling interest in Paradigm/Anthem. Logically we do share development costs on some entry level goods but in no way does Paradigm own us. We are a separate entity and with the higher end goods, Motion, ESL and of course Masterpiece, they are totally unique from a Paradigm product. Much better to think of us as good beer drinking buddy companies, not sisters.
as to other marketing avenues such as YouTube, Devin told me yesterday my crawling on the floor for best sub placement has been viewed over 1.1 Million times. i refer many people to our videos as a way to show us as humans, don't take ourselves too seriously, and a good way to speak to the customer. Have to say that is an effective way of marketing, knowledge share.
ONE THING I must add. We where bought by Shoreview as was a controlling interest in Paradigm/Anthem. Logically we do share development costs on some entry level goods but in no way does Paradigm own us. We are a separate entity and with the higher end goods, Motion, ESL and of course Masterpiece, they are totally unique from a Paradigm product. Much better to think of us as good beer drinking buddy companies, not sisters.
Thanks for the thoughts and details Peter, it does help to understand where you are coming from. Good to hear the YouTube channel is effective for you. I often go to YT when I need a ‘how-to’ for something.
I like your description of how you work with your sister companies, that seems to provide the right balance of synergy and independence.
I hope that ML & staff has a wonderful 2018, and that the upcoming CES brings your room lots of traffic and business.
Happy New Year!
I like your description of how you work with your sister companies, that seems to provide the right balance of synergy and independence.
I hope that ML & staff has a wonderful 2018, and that the upcoming CES brings your room lots of traffic and business.
Happy New Year!
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My only issue with ML that at least where I live, I need to drive at least 300 miles to find a dealer to audition the new Masterpiece speakers. The Best Buy/Magnolia store near me
does not yet have any demo models for me to listen to.
I realize this problem is probably going to become more acute as "brick and mortar" stores continue to disappear. It's an issue because, at least for me, I absolutely have to listen
to equipment before I buy. Especially if I'm going to spend $15 K on speakers.
All that being said, I do love my Montis and I"m sure the ESL 13a would be an awesome upgrade.
There is of course a separate issue of how the disappearance of high-end audio stores will affect the audiophile market.
does not yet have any demo models for me to listen to.
I realize this problem is probably going to become more acute as "brick and mortar" stores continue to disappear. It's an issue because, at least for me, I absolutely have to listen
to equipment before I buy. Especially if I'm going to spend $15 K on speakers.
All that being said, I do love my Montis and I"m sure the ESL 13a would be an awesome upgrade.
There is of course a separate issue of how the disappearance of high-end audio stores will affect the audiophile market.
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Equipment purchasing will become a vacation destination.
"Hey dear lets go to NY and listen to some ML speakers. Since were there we can do a few days of site seeing."
I might need to work on that one but, you get the idea.
"Hey dear lets go to NY and listen to some ML speakers. Since were there we can do a few days of site seeing."
I might need to work on that one but, you get the idea.
Wow! I can't see ever making a trip just to audition speakers. That is well past the pain point I would expend for audio.
FWIW, I purchased my speakers without ever having heard them and had them shipped to my home vs. driving 2.5-3 hours both ways to audition a pair. The same goes for my OPPO 105D and amplifier.
I think I spent 3 days picking out my equipment. No regrets. I've been very happy with everything. It all sounds great. I wish the speakers had a larger sweet spot, but that is my only complaint and I don't have room for anything bigger than what I have now.
Well Mark, you are clearly not taking this hobby seriously enough.
Well Mark, you are clearly not taking this hobby seriously enough.
Not obsessively, no
BTW I'm finding my VR rig is much more social. I have a friend and his son coming over this week and another couple and their kids later on this week followed by a neighbor next week. A couple of them have listened to my stereo for a few hours, but this seems to capture a lot more interest.
It's kind of like when I used to own a houseboat. There was no lack of friends(and others) wanting to hang out on the warm weekends.
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Well Mark, you are clearly not taking this hobby seriously enough.
I know you are kind of joking here, but what you say is actually true. Mark isn’t a serious audiophile. I don’t mean that as a slight against him. There’s nothing wrong with it. It’s just a hobby and anyone can be as serious as they wish. But to compare it to one of Mark’s other hobbies...it’s like he’s completely satisfied with an Xbox 360 on a 32” screen, while others are putting together these ridiculous setups with high-end consoles, VR headsets, cockpit seating with attached vibration woofers, etc.
Mark’s actual gaming setup makes mine look amateurish. His woodworking setup probably puts most people’s “shop” to shame. It’s all about where you find value. I put a lot more into A/V and photography because those are the hobbies that give me the most satisfaction. I probably spent more on my Leica M10 camera body than Mark spent on his whole audio system. At the same time, I can’t begin to fathom what he has spent on woodworking equipment. It’s all good, as long as we are enjoying ourselves and finding value in the things we spend our money on.
I have traveled to Denver for RMAF on multiple occasions, simply because I love the hobby and the chance to experience so much variety of gear and talk with the creators behind it all. I would have no problem making a trip to a larger city to audition gear I was planning on dropping ten grand or more on. Just makes sense to do so.
Great idea! Lol, my wife and I are going to NYC next year to see a show. I'll take advantage of that to do some auditioning. Assuming I can find an audio store there.
But seriously, if being an audiophile will require you to be so rich that you need to take a plane trip to audition, then the hobby might be in trouble.
Not obsessively, no
BTW I'm finding my VR rig is much more social. I have a friend and his son coming over this week and another couple and their kids later on this week followed by a neighbor next week. A couple of them have listened to my stereo for a few hours, but this seems to capture a lot more interest.
It's kind of like when I used to own a houseboat. There was no lack of friends(and others) wanting to hang out on the warm weekends.
Mark that was meant as a joke. Though by my own admission I am obsessed to a point with my hobby.
As you know there many people that will not purchase without hearing equipment at a store or even at home. There is nothing wrong with either approach. I have purchased equipment without hearing just by reviews and comments of people I have faith in. I have purchased equipment listened to it and sold it when It was not what I wanted.
Though serious listening can be social, most times, for me it is not. My preference is to focus on and be lost in the music. Do I ever have groups of friends/relatives during an evening just listen casually and talk, yes. Definitely your VR and RC copters are much more social.
From my prospective/observation seeing your Helicopters and Virtuality Reality driving and flying seems no different than those of us that would take and deep interest/obsession in their audio hobby. To a point there is nothing wrong with obsession.
Have you never driven somewhere to try out a new controller, flying machine or piece of VR equipment?
Actually I haven't.
I got the VR equipment so I could experience it. I did all my research online.
I pre-ordered my last RC transmitter before it's design was finalized. The company had a track record and when I saw what they were planning to produce, I had to buy one just to support what they were doing which was EXTREMELY disruptive in that space. I've had it 4 years and still love it. It was a breakthrough piece of equipment.
My two favorite helicopters were purchased from what is basically a single man operation in Germany. The first I was put on a 6 month waiting list and the 2nd I got on the list for it 3 years before it was ready. However I did see a pre-production copy of the 2nd heli at a big flying the year before it was ready.
I purchase the vast majority of my tools online without ever having seen them in person.
So far I have no regrets in buying big ticket items this way.
BTW I'm not suggesting that taking the time to check things out is a bad thing. It's just not how I like to spend my time.
I guess my point was more that I have almost no need for brick and mortar establishments anymore with everything I can find on the Internet.
Could just be a matter of demographics.
As I've gotten older I've changed my hobbies from sitting ones (stereo listening, driving an old Porsche) to more active ones in an attempt to get into shape. As a result I've taken over six inches off my waist. Perhaps there are other people doing the same and they drop out as I have for the last seven years.
Based on how I've seen the youth of today abuse their hearing, I'd invest in hearing loss clinics over anything high end stereo related.
I just came to see what's changed in the old forum and saw this thread. Pretty much the sane trend we all saw a decade ago coming into being now.
Wow ........another voice from the past, George, nice to hear you've gotten yourself back in shape. Still have that hovercraft gizmo you were working on ?
