Is the Martin Logan brand declining?

[Bernard]

My enthusiasm for the brand has not waned. I would purchase the CLX in a heartbeat, but it's a question of economics...I can't afford them!

I'm still amazed when on other forums I see that so few people seem to own MLs.

 

[Rich]

Understood Rich and with that being said I can't believe what it cost to replace my 9 year old pick up truck !

Really? Ok, let’s compare. Last year I replaced my 15 year old F250. I paid $40,000 for the most basic version back in 2001. I bought the King Ranch version last year for $60,000. Had I bought the basic Lariat, I would have spent about $6000 less. This rise in price almost perfectly tracks inflation over this time period. If ML’s perfectly tracked inflation, the Prodigy equivalent would cost $15,000 today. Except it costs $25,000 (almost half the cost of that basic Lariat F250!). You see what I’m getting at here? There’s not much doubt ML jacked the prices up way out of proportion to cost of manufacture or inflation, simply to gouge the high end customer in the name of profits. Seriously, did anyone think the Summit X was worth half again as much as the Summit? They are virtually identical speakers!

I think this price gouging (also in replacement panel costs as mentioned by Gordon) has probably soured a lot of long-time Logan fans on the brand. I know it did me.

 

[sleepysurf]

As one of the other old f@rts on this forum, here's my $0.02 worth.

I don't think the ML brand is declining, but their changing customer demographics (younger, less affluent, smaller rooms with mixed A/V use, etc.) has forced them to shift their focus. The Electro/Motion series is probably where most of their revenue comes. However, at one of the recent audio shows, the ML Rep said sales have been terrific. The profits from their entry/mid-level line is what allows them to continue development of their Masterpiece "audiophile" grade products, but that's a niche segment.

I, too, had serious doubts when Shoreview bought ML, but at least they've kept manufacturing of the Masterpiece products in North America, rather than outsourcing everything to Asia, which would have been more profitable. Consolidating ML, Paradigm, and Anthem under one roof has, IMHO, been more of a boon than detriment. PBK/ARC were implemented from Anthem, and yielded a significant improvement in subwoofer performance, and panel/woofer integration in the new Masterpiece series.

I agree the cost for replacement panels is now almost prohibitive, but you can't blame them for preferring to sell new product vs. continuing to support legacy products on a "near break-even" basis. At least they offer panel replacements for those who want to pay for them.

Looking ahead, ML faces more competition than ever at all price points. Their biggest competition might actually be Sonos, Google Home, and the forthcoming Apple HomePod. Just today, I came home, and my wife is streaming tunes from the Google Mini in our kitchen, while our Expression 13A's were wincing in the family room!

Re this forum, most of the "regulars" (including me) are getting older, and priorities change. There are certainly thousands of "new" ML owners, but they hang out on Facebook, Twitter, etc. rather than frequenting online discussion forums. The declining activity here isn't necessarily a bad omen for the future of ML, just a reminder that "times are a changin'."

 

[Rich]

Alan, thanks for your perspective. You bring up some good points. I’m not in agreement that ML’s customer demographic has changed that much. I think ML itself has changed to take advantage of a wider variety of customer demographics because it is profitable to do so. Let me explain. I don’t think twenty year olds were buying Ascents, Odysseys and Prodigys fifteen years ago. Those customers were mostly in their forties, fifties and older. After Shoreview came along, ML diversified their product line into the lower price points to take advantage of that untapped younger and less-affluent market. And I don’t really have a problem with that, per se.

But the other thing they did is jack up the prices on the Masterpiece lines quite a bit, in order to extract more profits from those 40 and older customers who want a higher end product and can afford it. I don’t really believe the market in that age group has dwindled that much over the past decade and a half. I do think ML’s market share in that age group has probably shrunk as they have priced themselves out of it in relation to the competition. If it shrinks too much to the extent that it’s profitability declines, I have little doubt they will just cut those lines and leave the high end altogether. Their focus now is on profits, not on creating the best speaker for the money.

The high end may be a “niche” market, as you say. But I don’t see Magnepan or Soundlab going out of business for catering to that niche (at reasonable price points). So I think the excuse that ML has to subsidize the Masterpiece series by catering to the lower end while substantially raising prices of the higher end just doesn’t hold water. Don’t get me wrong. I think it’s been a successful strategy. I’m sure they are making good sales and profits. But I think they are losing the loyalty of their long-term fans in the process. I don’t expect their losing much sleep over that.

And yes, I do blame them for jacking up prices on replacement panels to try to force new sales. If I pay $15k to $25k for a pair of speakers, I don’t expect to pay half again as much for replacement panels when the originals give out. I mean, come on! I would be surprised if the panel was as much as 20% of the production cost of these speakers. So much more time, effort and money goes into the bass module and electronics. Any company that gave a crap about customer loyalty would charge cost plus a reasonable profit margin for replacement panels. This move alone is enough to turn me away from the brand. And I’m speaking as someone who owns Summits, Ascents, Clarities, fresco i’s, a Stage, and a Descent subwoofer.

Edit: regarding your comments on the forum, I think what you say is true as to buyers of the lower tier products. But it begs the question whether their market share is dwindling for the higher end products. If I had no prior knowledge of electrostatic speakers and had just purchased a 13a, 15a, or Neolith, I would certainly be seeking out a forum like this to discuss my new purchase and get advice on setup. But we really haven’t had many of those posts. Nor have we had that much discussion of these models by existing members. I just don’t see the enthusiasm that we had for prior updates on this forum.

 

[timm]

And don't get me wrong. I still like the product. For me - it was just a matter of moving up and wanting something that I thought sounded more than a bump up. For the 14 I spent after tax / w upgraded trim / delivered - well I wasn't looking for a 'best value' - I was looking for what I thought were the best speaker for me which I could somehow justify.

Trying not to gush too much - they are simply tremendous. The room with these essentially becomes your speaker cabinet as you have this huge rear wave for all frequencies. Room placement is more finicky than a logan since the ML doesn't push as large of a rear wave with low frequency included.

 

[JonFo]

As a Brand, I think ML is doing fine. They are leveraging their 'high-end' history as a halo over the mid-line products, and are still keeping up by releasing ever-improving high-end pieces. So from a general market presence standpoint, they are holding their own and likely growing quite nicely (in terms of unit sales and profits).

I do agree with Rich's perspective on the pricing and value proposition of the new Masterpiece line. I'd never pay $25K for the 15, I might part with $10K, but not more. Now, they can get away with it because there is a new breed of buyer that is not necessarily an audiophile, but more of a buyer at a price-point and 'looks' that show off their wealth and 'taste'. Much in the same vein people buy Ferraris and Lambos, when an Acura NSX sports hybrid is an all-around better car.

I think the drop off in traffic here has more to do with other forums (WBF/AVSforum) choices, and social media than with anything else. I usually will link back to here when commenting on those other venues just so people are aware of the great resources here. The lack of ML staff participation is also a reason why its not as sticky as it could be.

 

[Rich]

Jon, great post. I can’t disagree with anything you said. Interesting perspective on the forum traffic. Maybe it is that people tend towards some of the larger, more generalized Audio forums. And the old timers here just don’t have as much to discuss that hasn’t already been talked to death.

Timm, I’m curious what size room you have the Maggie’s in. They seem like a pretty big speaker. You may benefit from something like my setup. I have RealTraps diffusers in the corners, with bass traps behind them. That sounds like it would work perfect to tame the rear wave of the Maggie’s.

 

[amey01]

As a Brand, I think ML is doing fine. They are leveraging their 'high-end' history as a halo over the mid-line products, and are still keeping up by releasing ever-improving high-end pieces. So from a general market presence standpoint, they are holding their own and likely growing quite nicely (in terms of unit sales and profits).

I do agree with Rich's perspective on the pricing and value proposition of the new Masterpiece line. I'd never pay $25K for the 15, I might part with $10K, but not more. Now, they can get away with it because there is a new breed of buyer that is not necessarily an audiophile, but more of a buyer at a price-point and 'looks' that show off their wealth and 'taste'. Much in the same vein people buy Ferraris and Lambos, when an Acura NSX sports hybrid is an all-around better car.

I think the drop off in traffic here has more to do with other forums (WBF/AVSforum) choices, and social media than with anything else. I usually will link back to here when commenting on those other venues just so people are aware of the great resources here. The lack of ML staff participation is also a reason why its not as sticky as it could be.

I agree with Jon's post 100%.

This forum doesn't have the same activity because old member posts die down, and new members are on Facebook and the like. It's where all communication happens these days and I wouldn't be surprised if it also sees more high-end audio sales than Audiogon.

As for the current line, it is better than ever. The Neolith and renaissance line are top end speakers - but to me, the value proposition just isn't there any more. Pricing really has got out of hand - for both speakers as well as parts. For that reason, my current pair of MLs will likely be my last - I just couldn't justify spending any amount really on a pair of speakers that could become unlistenable at any point without notice - and being up for $thousands of repairs for what is a known consumable part (the panel).

 

[timm]

Jon, great post. I can’t disagree with anything you said. Interesting perspective on the forum traffic. Maybe it is that people tend towards some of the larger, more generalized Audio forums. And the old timers here just don’t have as much to discuss that hasn’t already been talked to death.

Timm, I’m curious what size room you have the Maggie’s in. They seem like a pretty big speaker. You may benefit from something like my setup. I have RealTraps diffusers in the corners, with bass traps behind them. That sounds like it would work perfect to tame the rear wave of the Maggie’s.

My room is 17x30. Diffusion is definitely something I need to look at.

 

[JonFo]

... And the old timers here just don’t have as much to discuss that hasn’t already been talked to death. ..

True, that's a big part of it. Maybe us old-timers need to collect and curate many of the threads and provide a useful index and some summary Wiki-style pages. I keep wanting to do that for the Acoustics topic, as it is critical to maximizing the results of the awesome electrostats (or any speaker).

Although I will be adding a new thread in the next few days on a topic that has not been hashed to death here, should be interesting. It involves improving mid-bass output with 'stats.

 

[RCHeliGuy]

Of course Ethan Winer's "The Audio Expert Everything You Need to Know About Audio" is out in print now, so people can just go there save a lot of time and avoid all the debates.


https://www.amazon.com/Audio-Expert-Everything-Need-About/dp/0240821009

 

[Brad225]

Maggi 20.7 is retail of $14,000 what is the actual purchase price after discount. CLX's are $25,400 but I believe i paid $18,000 new. Is that still a lot of money, absolutely. I thought a long time before I started looking seriously. I would think 15a are really around the CLX price and the 13a maybe around the old retail of Summit?

I am just curious of the actual purchase price rather than retail for comparison sake. I don't think I would have paid retail for them that is more than we paid for our first house.

 

[Brad225]

Of course Ethan Winer's "The Audio Expert Everything You Need to Know About Audio" is out in print now, so people can just go there save a lot of time and avoid all the debates.


https://www.amazon.com/Audio-Expert-Everything-Need-About/dp/0240821009

WOW, did he sell both copies he had printed. Sorry I couldn't resist Mark.

 

[Gordon Gray]

The Amazon reviews were pretty positive with the vast majority of them being posted in 2012.

PS: I'm not sure what's the relevance to this thread but whatever.

 

[RCHeliGuy]

The Amazon reviews were pretty positive with the vast majority of them being posted in 2012.

PS: I'm not sure what's the relevance to this thread but whatever.

Actually I was responding to the post before mine that said a bunch of the people who have been at this a while and who have contributed lots of useful reference type posts that get buried over time don't necessarily feel like rehashing the same thing over and over again.

Maybe being nominated for 2018 TEC award from NAMM in the Audio Education Technology category means nothing to some of you. I suppose if he wins an award, it still wouldn't mean anything to some of you. As someone who owns and has read his copy, I thought it was a very done piece of reference material that was sorely needed.

 

[User211]

I think that associating lack of interest in this forum versus how well ML are doing is a fairly dodgy assertion to make.

Audio forums are not the newish things they used to be years ago and people have to a large extent discovered whether they fit in with particular forums.

Many have been here and gone, like other forums, after having a hard time or just posting rubbish. Once bitten, twice shy, so to speak. They won't be coming back.

The novelty of forums in general has worn off, and there are far more of them than the ever were, combined with Facebook etc etc that means the distribution of hi-fi related posts is far wider than it ever has been. Therefore sites like this have taken a big hit.

This isn't to discount many of the points made thus far.

Would I buy another ML product? No. Why? I just don't think they are as good as I used to. 17 years worth of "used to'.

I have also become convinced that custom built speakers can provide far better value for money. But that isn't surprising. No company overheads like staff and offices to pay for. No economies of scale, granted, but it is still cheaper.

 

[Rich]

I think that associating lack of interest in this forum versus how well ML are doing is a fairly dodgy assertion to make.

Fair point, Justin. But in my defense, I didn’t make the assertion. I simply asked the question. On the one hand, I think you are right that we can’t read too much into the traffic (or lack thereof) on this forum. But on the other, I have been surprised there hasn’t been a lot of discussion around the new models since they came out. Not to mention how few member’s systems sport the new models (I think I counted three total). Likewise, and to your broader point, I just don’t see a lot of discussion of or enthusiasm for Martin Logans on other audio forums either. Which makes me wonder if the brand isn’t somewhat in decline, at least among audiophiles purchasing high end speakers. I don’t have any answers here, but I do enjoy the discussion.

Honestly, one of my reasons for posting this thread was to try to get some of the old timers who haven’t posted much lately back into an audio discussion. And look, I got you, Adam, Jonfo, Alan, Bernard, Tom, Gordon, Dave and others all to contribute your thoughts. So in that sense, this thread is a smashing success! All I can say is: Where’s Roberto?

Oh, and I expect Jonfo will completely agree with your perspective on the custom-built speaker value proposition.

Your point about not feeling the Logan’s are as good as you used to sticks with me. As I think about upgrading the Summits at some point over the next few years, I have this “grass is greener” feeling towards the Maggie’s, Soundlab, and Roger Sanders’ speakers, among others. (And no, I don’t mind the narrow sweet spot of the Sanders Sound speakers.) With the ML prices the way they currently are, I’m beginning to wonder whether they truly offer anything over the less expensive competitive options. Of course, Brad has a good point about discounts. If I could get the 15a for about $12k, it would be a tougher choice.

As for Ethan, Mark, I think he makes great acoustic treatments, though he values them highly. But I consider him to be one of many highly opinionated so-called audio experts. I’m sure his book contains some good info. I’m just not sure I could stomach reading it given the self-important egotistical way he generally comes across. But I could be wrong on that.

 

[User211]

Rich I'll post back in a day or two. Slumming it at the Grand Meliá Red Level Tenerife at the mo. Here's some food for thought until then...

 

[RCHeliGuy]

As for Ethan, Mark, I think he makes great acoustic treatments, though he values them highly. But I consider him to be one of many highly opinionated so-called audio experts. I’m sure his book contains some good info. I’m just not sure I could stomach reading it given the self-important egotistical way he generally comes across. But I could be wrong on that.

All I know from my conversations with him is that the book is doing well and there is a 2nd edition that is currently "out of stock". Look for yourself.

https://www.amazon.com/Audio-Expert-Everything-Need-About/dp/0415788846/

I suspect that if I didn't agree with him, it would have a pronounced impact on how I felt about how he was saying what he is saying. I found the book pretty straight forward with detailed explanations and frequently the science behind them.

 

[Joey_V]

Can't speak for others, but I can speak for myself.

ML was one of those first loves for me. I bought into the hive when I was young... can't believe that was like 13 years ago when I was in college. First with the Montage then the Mosaic then the Vantage then the Summit.

Then a move to a loft in Chicago ruined the stat sound for me, and I sold my Summits to Tom.

Then a hiatus from all audio, then I returned and was about to buy one of the new pair of speakers, but the best non-clx speaker was the Summit X. I wanted something a little different than what I had previously so I went with another brand.

Fast forward 3 years, and here we are.

I still have a penchant for ML as I always had... and am planning on making a move for a pair of ESL11A within the next 12 months for one of the other rooms.

So, for me, the ML brand is alive and well.

As for the forum, I don't like to participate as much if I'm not sporting an ML speaker.